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Old 12-29-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Both had believed the command "Be" is from Allah and submitted.
The word "BE!" is applicable to Allah's command for something to BE and it will Be.

However the 'Be' verses are not related to Allah creating babies as Muslims.
Show me the relevant verse?
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The word "BE!" is applicable to Allah's command for something to BE and it will Be.

However the 'Be' verses are not related to Allah creating babies as Muslims.
Show me the relevant verse?
Here are 4 more verses:

[3.47] She said: My Lord! When shall there be a son (born) to me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

[40.68] He it is Who gives life and brings death, so when He decrees an affair, He only says to it: Be, and it is.

[16.40] Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.

[19.35] It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Here are 4 more verses:

[3.47] She said: My Lord! When shall there be a son (born) to me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

[40.68] He it is Who gives life and brings death, so when He decrees an affair, He only says to it: Be, and it is.

[16.40] Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.

[19.35] It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.
I noted 9 such BE! and So! verses in my database but none stated specifically a child of a Muslim parent is automatically a Muslim.

There is no specific verse in the Quran that state 'a child of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim.'

As I had stated the only way to infer such a point is to extract it from a combination of various related verses.

What is certain of a person being a Muslim is that person must essentially submit [aslama], then believe in Allah, the messenger and the last day.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I noted 9 such BE! and So! verses in my database but none stated specifically a child of a Muslim parent is automatically a Muslim.

There is no specific verse in the Quran that state 'a child of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim.'

As I had stated the only way to infer such a point is to extract it from a combination of various related verses.

What is certain of a person being a Muslim is that person must essentially submit [aslama], then believe in Allah, the messenger and the last day.
Any person who submits to Allaah(swt) is performing Islam, even if doing so without knowledge. We are created as Muslims, even if we have no knowledge of Islam, it is only after we reach the ability to make free will informed choices can we choose not to be Muslims.

The Angels are perfect Muslims created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims. As far as I know the only creatures that have the ability to stop being Muslim are Man and Djinn. and the only created life forms that have eternal life are Angels, Djinn and Humans. If there are others we have not yet been informed of such.

Our default state is as a Muslim, it later becomes our choice if we will continue to be or not to be Muslim.

You will not find anything specifically stating such in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not a text book to teach us to be Muslim. It is a guide as to why we should be. For the hows and methods we must learn from the Sunnah which is derived from the Ahadith and to some extent from the Madhabs and handed down tradition.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The the following verses [and others] state each soul can only earn on its own account.

6:164. ... Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another's load. ..

29:6. And whosoever striveth, striveth [yujahidu] only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether Independent of (His) creatures. [believers given limited freewill]
Therefore the parents' acts will not contribute to the child's merit as a Muslim.
This meant that the child can only earn merits as a Muslim after affirming the basic Shahada?
Once again someone sitting in the West is wishing what Isalm SHOULD be. What you are describing is NOT what's happening. You mean to tell me that all across the Islamic land, teens "affirm" they are Muslim once they turn 18? Gimme a break! It's written down on their birth certificate the moment they are born. Now, you could change your religion later on in life but I don't recommend that!
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In addition my claim [from the Islamic perspective] is supported the verses from the Quran, i.e. Allah's only authorized words and nothing else.
People are literally losing their heads every day based on what someone says Muhammad said. You are constructing a religion for yourself that does not exist.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In Muhammad's case, obey Muhammad meant obey the message that is in the Quran, and nothing else.
If Muhammad has asked a follower to eat sand for dinner, there is no way, the follower should obey him since eating sand is not stated in the Quran.
Was enslaving women and children and looting their belongings in battle in the Koran too? Because that's exactly what Muhammad promised his followers they could do.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
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Reading this thread helps me understand why ISIS has as much traction as it does. They are smack in the mainstream.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:39 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Once again someone sitting in the West is wishing what Isalm SHOULD be. What you are describing is NOT what's happening. You mean to tell me that all across the Islamic land, teens "affirm" they are Muslim once they turn 18? Gimme a break! It's written down on their birth certificate the moment they are born. Now, you could change your religion later on in life but I don't recommend that!
You're confusing politics and public policy with theology and scripture. In many countries in the Muslim world, if one comes from a Muslim family they put "Islam" as their religion on their birth certificate and so on for other religions. That is their public policy.

This is entirely different than what the scripture states. The scripture states that all children are born Muslims. And in fact no Jew or Christian could deny this as being a Muslim literally means "one who submits to the will of God". Every baby is submitting to the will of God by it's very nature.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:43 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Reading this thread helps me understand why ISIS has as much traction as it does. They are smack in the mainstream.
Ok you've made the claim. We'll give you opportunity to prove that claim by connecting what people like Khalif, Woodrow and myself have said (apparently mainstream Muslims) with the stated positions of ISIS.
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