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Old 12-30-2016, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
14,662 posts, read 9,717,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Ok you've made the claim. We'll give you opportunity to prove that claim by connecting what people like Khalif, Woodrow and myself have said (apparently mainstream Muslims) with the stated positions of ISIS.
This crackpot claim that every baby born anywhere in the world comes out of the womb as Muslim tops what ISIS has ever said. So, yeah, you take the cake.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
This crackpot claim that every baby born anywhere in the world comes out of the womb as Muslim tops what ISIS has ever said. So, yeah, you take the cake.
So a baby is not submitting to the will of God?

I do know that a baby has not accepted Jesus Christ as his lord and savior.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You're confusing politics and public policy with theology and scripture. In many countries in the Muslim world, if one comes from a Muslim family they put "Islam" as their religion on their birth certificate and so on for other religions. That is their public policy.
Thanks for pointing out that Islam as a governing philosophy has failed miserably anywhere it has been tried. Reminds of the communism apologists in the west during the cold war. When you pointed out what Stalin and Mao did, they were quick to point out that what they practiced was not real communism. So where do I find the mythical country where they are governing by real Islam today?
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Old 12-30-2016, 09:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Thanks for pointing out that Islam as a governing philosophy has failed miserably anywhere it has been tried. Reminds of the communism apologists in the west during the cold war. When you pointed out what Stalin and Mao did, they were quick to point out that what they practiced was not real communism. So where do I find the mythical country where they are governing by real Islam today?
You're deflecting. Again please support your claim that the views of Muslims espoused in this thread promote and bring in to the mainstream, the stated positions of ISIS.
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
14,662 posts, read 9,717,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You're deflecting. Again please support your claim that the views of Muslims espoused in this thread promote and bring in to the mainstream, the stated positions of ISIS.
Even ISIS doesn't say every child born anywhere in the world is automatically a Muslim. What edition of Koran are you reading? This just proves people like you should be kept away as far as possible from instruments of power. I hope people looking for "moderate" Muslims read this thread. What a crackpot!
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:24 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Even ISIS doesn't say every child born anywhere in the world is automatically a Muslim. What edition of Koran are you reading? This just proves people like you should be kept away as far as possible from instruments of power. I hope people looking for "moderate" Muslims read this thread. What a crackpot!
There are no editions of the Quran. There is one Quran, this is not the New Testament.

I'll repeat since it doesn't appear that you're understanding what I'm trying to convey to you:

A Muslim is someone that submits to the will of God. Therefore by that definition by their very nature every child is a Muslim, they are submitting to will of God by merely being born and existing. Have they accepted Muhammad (saw) as a prophet? No, but before the age of reasoning and understanding they don't need to.

Every Christian or Jew who when I've explained this has agreed. Where you are confused is on the definition of a Muslim.
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:36 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Even ISIS doesn't say every child born anywhere in the world is automatically a Muslim. What edition of Koran are you reading?
I do not know any ISIS member so I can't say much about what they say but I find it so strange to find that one side hates being called "Muslim" and the other side hates being called "Kafir". This is perhaps why ISIS have lasted this long; someone has missed a trick here.

The reality is that "Muslim" does not mean "Muhammadan" and "Muhammadan" does not mean "Muslim". In other words, no baby is born "Muhammadan". Perhaps this will reduce some hate against a born "Muslim".
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Any person who submits to Allaah(swt) is performing Islam, even if doing so without knowledge. We are created as Muslims, even if we have no knowledge of Islam, it is only after we reach the ability to make free will informed choices can we choose not to be Muslims.
I have researched sufficiently and in depth to understand Allah has stated the Quran is perfected, complete and explain & expounded whatever is necessary for a Muslim to be a Muslim.
Note;

6:98. And He [Allah] it is Who hath produced you [mankind] from a single being, and (hath given you) a habitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people [Muslims] who have understanding.

6:114. Shall I seek other [gods, partners] than Allah for judge, when He it is who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture [Quran], fully explained? Those [proto-Muslims] unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it [this Quran] is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers [infidels]. [Perfected note v5:3, v20:114]

6:154. Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete [watammat] for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they [proto-Muslims] might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

7:52. Verily We have brought them [infidels] a Scripture [Book] which We expound with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people [Muslims] who believe.

7:145. And We [Allah] wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil livers.

12:111. In their [messengers'] history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It [Quran] is no invented story [fabricated hadith, narration] but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe. [Complete, Perfected]

1689. ... And We reveal the Scripture unto thee [O Muhammad] as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those [Muslims] who have surrendered (to Allah). …

12. And we appoint the night and the day two portents. Then We make dark the portent of the night, and We make the portent of the day sight giving, that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the computation of the years, and the reckoning; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding.
You don't trust what Allah is telling you from the above verses?
I have investigated the Quran in the details that Allah has spoken and I am sure, whatever is detailed in the Quran is sufficient for a person to be a good Muslim to RETURN to Allah.
However the problem is whilst the details are in the Quran, it is not easy to understand and grasp those details efficiently.
But no Muslims should do more than what is detailed by Allah in the Quran otherwise they are defying Allah's authority.


Quote:
The Angels are perfect Muslims created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims. As far as I know the only creatures that have the ability to stop being Muslim are Man and Djinn. and the only created life forms that have eternal life are Angels, Djinn and Humans. If there are others we have not yet been informed of such.
I am not too sure of the position of Angels, I will have to research on that. Allah is in total control and all things are in submission [basic] to Allah so that they will Return to Allah eventually. While humans are living within their appointed term on Earth they are given a limited degree of freewill.

Quote:
Our default state is as a Muslim, it later becomes our choice if we will continue to be or not to be Muslim.
You will not find anything specifically stating such in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not a text book to teach us to be Muslim. It is a guide as to why we should be. For the hows and methods we must learn from the Sunnah which is derived from the Ahadith and to some extent from the Madhabs and handed down tradition.
How can you claim that default when Allah did not specify it. On that basis you can only speculate and assume.

You are going against Allah words as per the verses I listed above which state the Quran is perfected, completed, final and explained & expounded things in detail. The Quran is more than sufficient for any humans to be the perfect Muslims if only they have that capability, otherwise they must do their best.
Obviously the Quran did not provide every detail to the finest micro actions but it has sufficient details to cover all general matters a person need to be a Muslim as defined in the Quran-only.

To take the Ahadith as having divine authority and following any thing that is not in line with the Quran [what Allah has stated] is biddah and shirk, i.e. sinful.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Once again someone sitting in the West is wishing what Isalm SHOULD be. What you are describing is NOT what's happening. You mean to tell me that all across the Islamic land, teens "affirm" they are Muslim once they turn 18? Gimme a break! It's written down on their birth certificate the moment they are born. Now, you could change your religion later on in life but I don't recommend that!
What I have stated is in accordance to the Quran and nothing else.
The Quran defined a 'Muslim' [novice] as one who has declared he/she submit and believe in Allah, his messenger and the the last day.

It may not be some sort of baptism or official ceremony, but at any time a person assert the above in whatever forms then he/she by definition is a Muslim [novice]. A child born will to a Muslim family is likely to have made the following assertions on the above at some point and thus by definition he/she is a Muslim.

As for converts the present practice by many is the convert must assert and affirm the Shahada which incorporates the above elements.

What is written in the birth certificate is merely a legal procedure which is not considered on Judgment Day, it has nothing to do with Allah and Islam proper which must be in accordance with the Quran [what Allah has revealed].

I suggest you do not be too cocksure if you have not read the Quran at least 50 times [I have].
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
People are literally losing their heads every day based on what someone says Muhammad said. You are constructing a religion for yourself that does not exist.
Allah is supposed to be all powerful and omnipresent.
In accordance to the Quran, Muhammad is merely a 'parrot' or 'tape recorder' to repeat what Allah had intended to reveal to humankind. Whatever Muhammad said outside the scope of the Quran carry no divine authority.

Muslims are to obey Muhammad but only within the scope of the Quran.
Example, a secretary "must" obey her boss but only to the extent of her terms of employment within the constitution of the Company. She should not obey the boss if he asked her to do a job like a 'blow job' in the office.

If what Muhammad had said and it is in accordance with the Quran, there is no problem. Even I as a non-Muslim can advise a Muslim if I am to quote exactly from the Quran.
Practically, if I were to tell any ignorant Muslim that he cannot eat pork at all and he followed my instructions there is nothing wrong with that because that is in accordance to the Quran.
Rightly a Muslim should seek guidance from an Islamic expert or read the Quran himself, not listen to non-Muslims or any Tom, Dick and Harry.
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