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Old 01-08-2017, 03:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Reject several verses??
How many out of 6,236 verses?
And what are the weightages of such rejected verses?
The rest of the verses are subject to these verses. Therefore they carry full weightage that nobody can push aside to go and do otherwise.

For example, you cannot ignore/reject/overlook 60:8, 60:9, 2:190, 4:93, 6:151, 8:61, 17:31. There are others too but you will get some idea from these stated here.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The rest of the verses are subject to these verses. Therefore they carry full weightage that nobody can push aside to go and do otherwise.

For example, you cannot ignore/reject/overlook 60:8, 60:9, 2:190, 4:93, 6:151, 8:61, 17:31. There are others too but you will get some idea from these stated here.
Point is you are out of touch with reality. It is not up to me to reject or accept 60:8 and the likes.

Note my theoretical example re Pakistan loading nuclear bombs on India based on 2:193 because certain words and acts are deemed as hostilities and the subsequent nuclear wasteland that result.
In that case, how do you think Allah will judge the situation.
Will Allah rebuke Pakistan for not invoking 60:8?

Note there are lots of counter point re 60:8;
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_For...ur'an_60:8)

The reality is there will always be naturally ~20% of evil prone Muslims with a certain active tendency who will gravitate towards certain types of verses [evil laden -humanity box perspective] which they will act sincerely [without deliberate malice but] to please Allah with the hope they will go to Paradise expeditiously.

The point is verses like 60:8 [even controversial] and the likes can be retained in the Quran, but other verses [has evil laden element from humanity box] in the Quran must be dealt with appropriately to match with the inevitable and unavoidable reality there will always be ~20% of evil prone Muslims with a certain active evil tendency.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Point is you are out of touch with reality. It is not up to me to reject or accept 60:8 and the likes.

Note my theoretical example re Pakistan loading nuclear bombs on India based on 2:193 because certain words and acts are deemed as hostilities and the subsequent nuclear wasteland that result.
In that case, how do you think Allah will judge the situation.
Will Allah rebuke Pakistan for not invoking 60:8?
Continuum,

You are out of touch with the principles clearly stated in the Qur'aan. Muslims are not to begin hostility (2:190).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note there are lots of counter point re 60:8;
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_For...ur'an_60:8)

The reality is there will always be naturally ~20% of evil prone Muslims with a certain active tendency who will gravitate towards certain types of verses [evil laden -humanity box perspective] which they will act sincerely [without deliberate malice but] to please Allah with the hope they will go to Paradise expeditiously.
They will go to hell because of going against 2:190 and 4:93.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is verses like 60:8 [even controversial] and the likes can be retained in the Quran, but other verses [has evil laden element from humanity box] in the Quran must be dealt with appropriately to match with the inevitable and unavoidable reality there will always be ~20% of evil prone Muslims with a certain active evil tendency.
You and the evil doers cannot isolate any part of the verse from the rest of the verse or one verse from the rest of the verses. This is how you and the evil doers create "evil elements" from the justice elements in the Qur'aan. Doing so is in itself an evil doing. You have already proven this point in this forum.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

You are out of touch with the principles clearly stated in the Qur'aan. Muslims are not to begin hostility (2:190).

They will go to hell because of going against 2:190 and 4:93.

You and the evil doers cannot isolate any part of the verse from the rest of the verse or one verse from the rest of the verses. This is how you and the evil doers create "evil elements" from the justice elements in the Qur'aan. Doing so is in itself an evil doing. You have already proven this point in this forum.
First your claim above is not in line with the Quran's provision.

Another point is;
Can you judge Muslims or me on behalf of Allah on Judgment Day?
Have you been appointed an intercessor by Allah.
If NO, you above views has no credibility in the ultimate sense.

If, yes, then prove it.

Regardless of what you insist or my views, the evil prone Muslims will interpret 2:193 together with other evil laden verses to do what they are supposed to do to please Allah which in reality the results are evil and violence to humanity.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
First your claim above is not in line with the Quran's provision.

Another point is;
Can you judge Muslims or me on behalf of Allah on Judgment Day?
Have you been appointed an intercessor by Allah.
If NO, you above views has no credibility in the ultimate sense.

If, yes, then prove it.

Regardless of what you insist or my views, the evil prone Muslims will interpret 2:193 together with other evil laden verses to do what they are supposed to do to please Allah which in reality the results are evil and violence to humanity.
If those evil prone are Muslim they are also obligated to follow all the teachings of Islam which forbid Muslims from initiating violence. Even if attacked there are strict rules that must be adhered to.

You can not tell a person not to do something without naming what they are not to do.

Let us for sake of argument agree 20% of Muslims are evil prone. Then we have to come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is keeping the majority of them from committing evil as less than 1% of all Muslims have been found guilty of engaging in catastrophic evil deeds.
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
First your claim above is not in line with the Quran's provision.
It is in line with the Qur'aan's teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Another point is;
Can you judge Muslims or me on behalf of Allah on Judgment Day?
Not on the Judgment Day but can here according to the teachings of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Have you been appointed an intercessor by Allah.
No, nor are you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If NO, you above views has no credibility in the ultimate sense.
What do you mean by "ultimate sense"; your sense?

My view is correct according to the Qur'aanic teachings sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Regardless of what you insist or my views, the evil prone Muslims will interpret 2:193 together with other evil laden verses to do what they are supposed to do to please Allah which in reality the results are evil and violence to humanity.
They cannot do so without rejecting other verses and the first part of this verse. Therefore, they do what they do against the teachings of the Qur'aan. You are intelligent enough to understand that or else you are ignorant about the teachings of the Qur'aan.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:44 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,183,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If those evil prone are Muslim they are also obligated to follow all the teachings of Islam which forbid Muslims from initiating violence. Even if attacked there are strict rules that must be adhered to.

You can not tell a person not to do something without naming what they are not to do.

Let us for sake of argument agree 20% of Muslims are evil prone. Then we have to come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is keeping the majority of them from committing evil as less than 1% of all Muslims have been found guilty of engaging in catastrophic evil deeds.


That's a big self-serving logic jump. The majority of people of all religions, and agnostics and atheists, do not commit evil regardless of knowledge of the Qur'an.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
That's a big self-serving logic jump. The majority of people of all religions, and agnostics and atheists, do not commit evil regardless of knowledge of the Qur'an.
The Reference is to the 20% Continuum asserts are evil prone. About 1% of them commit atrocities, he claims that is because of the Qur'an. Using that logic it is fair to state that the 99% of them that do not commit atrocities, do not because of the Qur'an.

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Old 01-10-2017, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If those evil prone are Muslim they are also obligated to follow all the teachings of Islam which forbid Muslims from initiating violence. Even if attacked there are strict rules that must be adhered to.

You can not tell a person not to do something without naming what they are not to do.
The general rule is ALL Muslims must comply with 100% of the Quran.

You overlooked your own logic, i.e. that mean even the good Muslims must follow all the evil laden verses as well. In practice it does not work that way.
Example:
Evil and Violent materials in movies, News and Media.
Obvious there are good advice in the same movies, News and Media.
What is natural is the good will incline to the good elements while the evil prone will be inclined to the evil laden elements.
This is why evil and violent elements are banned [if extreme] and censored or their exposures are modulated for different ages.
There are so-called conditions for warfare, but as I argued they conditions are vague and full of holes that enable the evil prone to be triggered into evils and violence.
Besides NO ONE on Earth can judge whether they are right or wrong, so they will continue to commit evils and violence to please Allah.

Quote:
Let us for sake of argument agree 20% of Muslims are evil prone. Then we have to come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is keeping the majority of them from committing evil as less than 1% of all Muslims have been found guilty of engaging in catastrophic evil deeds.
Yes, appx 20% of Muslims [like all humans] are evil prone.
But 20% is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims around the world.
Note even at 1% that is 15 million.
0.1% is 1.5 million
0.01% is 150,000
0.001% is 15,000
Even ONE evil prone Muslim can cause catastrophic evil deeds as inspired by evil laden verses from the Quran.

Can you now see how dangerous is a potential pool of 20% evil prone Muslims floating around the world.

Nope, the Quran is not preventing the 19.99% from committing evil.
All the 20% are every ready to commit and support evils and violence [minor to serious] at any time when the right conditions emerges.
For example, when a cartoon is drawn most of these 20% will be worked up to stir some to go on a rampage around the world.
The supposed localized problem between the Palestinians and Israelists is a good example that stirred many evil prone Muslims around the world to commit terrible evils and violence. It is the same for the localized Afghanistan, Iraq, and other localized issues that infect all evil prone Muslims around the world.
If they don't jihad [English & Arabic, not Quranic] to commit evils and violence, they will support with funds and other resources.

Your views on the 1% is thus very short-sighted.
The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million] are not prevented by elements in the Quran at all.
By their evil prone nature, they are a potential time bomb waiting for the right conditions to stir them into evil and violent actions.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not on the Judgment Day but can here according to the teachings of the Qur'aan.
You may judge [your own personal subjective views] on the actions of the evil prone Muslims as wrong based on your views of the Quran.

But WHO ARE YOU? or any other humans?

Those evil prone Muslims who commit evils will not a give a damn to what you are saying?
This is what is happening with the followers of ISIS who believe they are acting in the sabil of Allah and no one will convince them otherwise.
Note my challenge to you to reform Anjem Choudary.

The only way is a secular solution to defeat ISIS and other physical measures to prevent them from committing evils and violence.
This is however an ineffective fire-fighting measure as physical measures cannot NEVER defeat an evil ideology if the solution do not address the ideology itself.

The only solution is to deal directly with the ideology and its evil laden elements.

But the problem with the ideology of Islam [which the evil prone are obligated to] is, the Quran is immutable and cannot be changed. If it is a flexible religion like Buddhism, it will be able to change to suit changing conditions for the better. Therefore the fault lies with how the Islam the religion came about and made its holy texts immutable [cannot be changed].

Such a fault is definitely not by a wise God, but made by a human or group of people.

Why the human or group of people made such a mistake must be due to their psychological profile which do not take into account the overall well being of humanity in the long run.

Thus to resolve the issue of the current evils and violence of the evil prone Muslims being triggered by evil laden verses in the Quran, we must take into account all the above factors and apply the proper Problem-Solving Techniques to resolve the problem effectively.
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