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Old 01-11-2017, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The general rule is ALL Muslims must comply with 100% of the Quran.

You overlooked your own logic, i.e. that mean even the good Muslims must follow all the evil laden verses as well. In practice it does not work that way.
Example:
Evil and Violent materials in movies, News and Media.
Obvious there are good advice in the same movies, News and Media.
What is natural is the good will incline to the good elements while the evil prone will be inclined to the evil laden elements.
This is why evil and violent elements are banned [if extreme] and censored or their exposures are modulated for different ages.
There are so-called conditions for warfare, but as I argued they conditions are vague and full of holes that enable the evil prone to be triggered into evils and violence.
Besides NO ONE on Earth can judge whether they are right or wrong, so they will continue to commit evils and violence to please Allah.

Yes, appx 20% of Muslims [like all humans] are evil prone.
But 20% is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims around the world.
Note even at 1% that is 15 million.
0.1% is 1.5 million
0.01% is 150,000
0.001% is 15,000
Even ONE evil prone Muslim can cause catastrophic evil deeds as inspired by evil laden verses from the Quran.

Can you now see how dangerous is a potential pool of 20% evil prone Muslims floating around the world.

Nope, the Quran is not preventing the 19.99% from committing evil.
All the 20% are every ready to commit and support evils and violence [minor to serious] at any time when the right conditions emerges.
For example, when a cartoon is drawn most of these 20% will be worked up to stir some to go on a rampage around the world.
The supposed localized problem between the Palestinians and Israelists is a good example that stirred many evil prone Muslims around the world to commit terrible evils and violence. It is the same for the localized Afghanistan, Iraq, and other localized issues that infect all evil prone Muslims around the world.
If they don't jihad [English & Arabic, not Quranic] to commit evils and violence, they will support with funds and other resources.

Your views on the 1% is thus very short-sighted.
The 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million] are not prevented by elements in the Quran at all.
By their evil prone nature, they are a potential time bomb waiting for the right conditions to stir them into evil and violent actions.
That 20% applies to all people. There are about 5 times as many non-Muslims as Muslims in the world giving a potential pool of (1.5 Billion) 1,500,000,000 evil prone non-Muslims around the world. devoid of the guidance of the Qur'an. The levels of violence in non-Muslim nations is astronomical. Without the Qur'an you have many more triggers for inciting the 20%--- Alcohol, drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc.

When you compare over-all violence among Muslims and non-Muslims it is easy to see the Qur'an results in an overall reduction of violence.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That 20% applies to all people. There are about 5 times as many non-Muslims as Muslims in the world giving a potential pool of (1.5 Billion) 1,500,000,000 evil prone non-Muslims around the world. devoid of the guidance of the Qur'an. The levels of violence in non-Muslim nations is astronomical. Without the Qur'an you have many more triggers for inciting the 20%--- Alcohol, drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc.

When you compare over-all violence among Muslims and non-Muslims it is easy to see the Qur'an results in an overall reduction of violence.
I agree completely. Without the Qur'aan there would have been zulm and zalimin (wrongdoers) all over the world today. Crusaders ruling the holy land with all those idols from Rome on the temple mount and the Jews banned from Jerusalem forever. And of course the same idol worshiping still going on in Mecca. Discrimination on grounds of color was forbidden through the Qur'aan 1400 years ago. But it was a norm even in America for several centuries after the revelation of the Qur'aan. It has been reduced greatly since the American blacks became Muslims and experienced equality of colors during hajj. Here are some quotes from a letter written by Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazzfrom from Mecca:

"Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

"I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat."

"There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white."

"During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana."

"We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude."

"Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro."

"All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds."

Sincerely,

Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X)
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That 20% applies to all people. There are about 5 times as many non-Muslims as Muslims in the world giving a potential pool of (1.5 Billion) 1,500,000,000 evil prone non-Muslims around the world. devoid of the guidance of the Qur'an.
The levels of violence in non-Muslim nations is astronomical. Without the Qur'an you have many more triggers for inciting the 20%--- Alcohol, drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc.

When you compare over-all violence among Muslims and non-Muslims it is easy to see the Qur'an results in an overall reduction of violence.
Note ALL evils and violence in the world at present must be addressed and dealt with without exception.

Quote:
The levels of violence in non-Muslim nations is astronomical. Without the Qur'an you have many more triggers for inciting the 20%--- Alcohol, drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc.
Your views are very flimsy, bad guesswork, and false without any basis.

I agree the elements of alcohol and gambling are curbed with threats of Hell, thus positive, within the Muslim community.
The problem evils and violence arising from alcohol and gambling are definitely an issue but they are NOT as critical as the evils and violence arising from the evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone and inspired by evil laden verses from the Quran.
As for "drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc." these are prevalent within the Muslim world in significant measures.

Note:
Quote:
Google, the world’s most popular Internet search engine, has found in a survey that mostly Muslim states seek access to sex-related websites and Pakistan tops the list.
Google found that of the top 10 countries - searching for sex-related sites - six were Muslim, with Pakistan on the top. The other Muslim countries are Egypt at number 2, Iran at 4, Morocco at 5, Saudi Arabia at 7 and Turkey at 8. Non-Muslim states are Vietnam at 3, India at 6, Philippines at 9 and Poland at 10
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_St..._-_Pornography
The conclusion is, without the Quran, there may be an increase in alcohol and gambling related evils and violence, but these are not critical issues in contrast to other evils of terrors and religious violence. Nevertheless humanity are doing its best to deal with alcohol and gambling related evils and violence.

What is most significant is, without the Quran, there will be no more ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram and hundreds of other Islamist terror group. The people of the World will not have to worry whenever they go to a concert, beach, supermarket, marathon, travel in a plane, tube, bus and all sort of gatherings. There are zero of other evils and violence attributed to the evil laden verses from the Quran.

Without the Quran, ex-Muslims who are evil prone will join other religions but they will not have the opportunity to be influenced by any leading evil laden elements from the holy texts [with exception of Judaism]. In any case, Judaism being inclusive will never accept ex-Muslims to be Jews, so this is not an issue with this case.
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note ALL evils and violence in the world at present must be addressed and dealt with without exception.

Your views are very flimsy, bad guesswork, and false without any basis.

I agree the elements of alcohol and gambling are curbed with threats of Hell, thus positive, within the Muslim community.
The problem evils and violence arising from alcohol and gambling are definitely an issue but they are NOT as critical as the evils and violence arising from the evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone and inspired by evil laden verses from the Quran.
As for "drugs, pornography, portrayals of violence, widespread lack of respect for other people etc." these are prevalent within the Muslim world in significant measures.

Note:


The conclusion is, without the Quran, there may be an increase in alcohol and gambling related evils and violence, but these are not critical issues in contrast to other evils of terrors and religious violence. Nevertheless humanity are doing its best to deal with alcohol and gambling related evils and violence.

What is most significant is, without the Quran, there will be no more ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram and hundreds of other Islamist terror group. The people of the World will not have to worry whenever they go to a concert, beach, supermarket, marathon, travel in a plane, tube, bus and all sort of gatherings. There are zero of other evils and violence attributed to the evil laden verses from the Quran.

Without the Quran, ex-Muslims who are evil prone will join other religions but they will not have the opportunity to be influenced by any leading evil laden elements from the holy texts [with exception of Judaism]. In any case, Judaism being inclusive will never accept ex-Muslims to be Jews, so this is not an issue with this case.
Not critical?

In the USA alone there are over 12,000 Murders annually. The Drug cartels in Mexico have committed more beheadings than ISIS

Violence is a world wide epidemic.

The 10 countries with the Highest Murder rate are not Islamic Nations

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not critical?

In the USA alone there are over 12,000 Murders annually. The Drug cartels in Mexico have committed more beheadings than ISIS

Violence is a world wide epidemic.

The 10 countries with the Highest Murder rate are not Islamic Nations

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015
You missed my point, I stated,

Quote:
The conclusion is, without the Quran, there may be an increase in alcohol and gambling related evils and violence, but these are not critical issues in contrast to other evils of terrors and religious violence. Nevertheless humanity are doing its best to deal with alcohol and gambling related evils and violence.
I stated evil and violence related to alcohol and gambling are not critical.
I did not include drugs. Evils and violence related to drugs are a major issue.

and I stated in the first sentence;

Quote:
Note ALL evils and violence in the world at present must be addressed and dealt with without exception.
Note there is a difference between evils & violence that are isolated to a location or cause and evil & violence that has a virulent effect around the world. At the present the virulent element is mostly from Islamic evils and violence.

A murder involving drug cartels in Mexico will not trigger a rampage all over the world. A gun shooting incident involving a jealous husband, a mad serial killer or gang revenge anywhere will also not trigger a chain reaction around the world.

However a small issue like drawing of cartoons can be virulent and cause SOME Muslims all over the world to go on a rampage destroying properties and killing innocent people. It is the same for any issue related to Islam anywhere in the world and it will cause evil and violence responses from wherever there are Muslims around the world.
The Quran singled out the infidels as enemies.
The infidels are associated with whatever is 'Western'.
As such, Western interests, properties and people [even innocent ones] all around the word are targeted by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Can you see the difference?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed my point, I stated,



I stated evil and violence related to alcohol and gambling are not critical.
I did not include drugs. Evils and violence related to drugs are a major issue.

and I stated in the first sentence;



Note there is a difference between evils & violence that are isolated to a location or cause and evil & violence that has a virulent effect around the world. At the present the virulent element is mostly from Islamic evils and violence.

A murder involving drug cartels in Mexico will not trigger a rampage all over the world. A gun shooting incident involving a jealous husband, a mad serial killer or gang revenge anywhere will also not trigger a chain reaction around the world.

However a small issue like drawing of cartoons can be virulent and cause SOME Muslims all over the world to go on a rampage destroying properties and killing innocent people. It is the same for any issue related to Islam anywhere in the world and it will cause evil and violence responses from wherever there are Muslims around the world.
The Quran singled out the infidels as enemies.
The infidels are associated with whatever is 'Western'.
As such, Western interests, properties and people [even innocent ones] all around the word are targeted by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Can you see the difference?
There is no difference. Nearly every action good or bad has the potential of creating evil half a world a way. Some of the most abused drugs in the world came from medical sources.

Should we abandon the use of drugs in Medicine because it is abused by evil doers?
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:43 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed my point, I stated,



I stated evil and violence related to alcohol and gambling are not critical.
I did not include drugs. Evils and violence related to drugs are a major issue.

and I stated in the first sentence;



Note there is a difference between evils & violence that are isolated to a location or cause and evil & violence that has a virulent effect around the world. At the present the virulent element is mostly from Islamic evils and violence.

A murder involving drug cartels in Mexico will not trigger a rampage all over the world. A gun shooting incident involving a jealous husband, a mad serial killer or gang revenge anywhere will also not trigger a chain reaction around the world.

However a small issue like drawing of cartoons can be virulent and cause SOME Muslims all over the world to go on a rampage destroying properties and killing innocent people. It is the same for any issue related to Islam anywhere in the world and it will cause evil and violence responses from wherever there are Muslims around the world.
The Quran singled out the infidels as enemies.
The infidels are associated with whatever is 'Western'.
As such, Western interests, properties and people [even innocent ones] all around the word are targeted by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Can you see the difference?
Yes, I can see the difference; you singled out Muslims to link their behavior to the verses of the Qur'aan and never the cartoons as the root cause. There would have been no evil reaction if there were no silly cartoons to trigger off the evil behavior. Such behavior wasn't due to the verses but due to the cartoons. Any intelligent man will know that the cartoons were the root cause.

You are talking in ignorance about the Qur'aan if you say that the Qur'aan singled out the infidels as the enemies. Show me just one verse of the Qur'aan that singled out even one peaceful infidels as enemy of Muslims?
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no difference. Nearly every action good or bad has the potential of creating evil half a world a way. Some of the most abused drugs in the world came from medical sources.

Should we abandon the use of drugs in Medicine because it is abused by evil doers?
Many drugs that has positive drugs are abused by addicts, evils doers and others.
However note the attention and warnings given to such possible abuses and the recommend controls put into the used of these drugs.

What is a controlled medicine (drug)?
What is a controlled medicine (drug)? - Health questions - NHS Choices

On the other hand, Islam and the Quran is a free for all.
A person become a Muslim simply by affirming the Shahada in various format either explicitly or implicitly and one is a Muslim who must comply with 100% of the Quran which contain the evil and violent elements.

Therefore your example in reference to drugs is not effective.

In a free for all situation especially with religion, the holy text of the religion MUST not contain immutable verses with leading evil laden elements. 'Leading' meant it is very likely to influence evil prone believers.
In contrast note Buddhism and Jainism which do not has any 'leading' evil laden elements in their holy texts to influence believers to commit evil and violence in the name of the religion or name of Buddha.
Have you heard of any Buddhists shouting in the like of "Buddhahu Arkbar" or quoting from the main Buddhist sutras [texts] while committing evils and violence?

Buddhism and Jainism are wise religions in that they do not include any 'leading' evil elements in their holy texts because they understand the vulnerabilities of the natural existing evil prone believers who will read the text too literally from their perspective.
Christianity is also in the same shoe as wise where it put a pacifist maxim [love your enemies, give your right cheek.., love this and that..] to override any elements of evil wrongly perceived.
The focus of wise religions are on the personal salvation of the individual[s] and less busy body in condemning others with evil and violent elements.

Islam and the Quran unfortunately has tons of evil laden elements and leave them very open ended in general.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, I can see the difference; you singled out Muslims to link their behavior to the verses of the Qur'aan and never the cartoons as the root cause. There would have been no evil reaction if there were no silly cartoons to trigger off the evil behavior. Such behavior wasn't due to the verses but due to the cartoons. Any intelligent man will know that the cartoons were the root cause.

You are talking in ignorance about the Qur'aan if you say that the Qur'aan singled out the infidels as the enemies. Show me just one verse of the Qur'aan that singled out even one peaceful infidels as enemy of Muslims?
That is why you are ignorant of the concept of the ultimate proximate root causes.
One of the technique of root cause analysis is to ask as many 'WHYs" as possible till the reason is exhausted.

Note;

Quote:
5-Whys is an iterative interrogative technique used to explore the cause-and-effect relationships underlying a particular problem.[1]
The primary goal of the technique is to determine the root cause of a defect or problem by repeating the question "Why?"
Each answer forms the basis of the next question.
The "5" in the name derives from an anecdotal observation on the number of iterations needed to resolve the problem.
-wiki
To solve the problem of the cartoons we proceed as follows.

1. WHY[1] did SOME Muslims go on rampage in the following evil and violent incidents.
... Muslims Continue Cartoon Rampage, US Threatened
... Answer: Because infidels drew the cartoons of prophet Muhammad.

2. WHY [2] do SOME Muslims get offended with the drawings of cartoon of Muhammad.
... Answer: Because the drawing of the cartoons of Muhammad is offensive, an insult and a threat to Islam.

3. WHY [3] is the drawing of the cartoons of Muhammad is offensive, an insult and a threat to Islam.
... Answer: Because the verses in the Quran said the drawing of any image of Muhammad is an insult and threat [fitna] to Islam.

As you can see the deeper and more proximate cause of the evil and violence is from the verses in the Quran.
Therefore IF we remove those caustic verses in the Quran, Muslims will have no basis to justify their evil and violence when the cartoon of Muhammad are drawn. There upon, if any Muslim is offended by drawings of Muhammad and commit violence, it has nothing to do with the religion of Islam.

Note in contrast, the drawing of cartoons of Jesus, Buddha and other religious founders do not stir their respective believers in committing those violence above.

The picture is supposedly offensive, but we do not hear of Buddhists all over the world going on a rampage over such pictures. Imagine what will happen if Muhammad is placed side by side with the girl in her underwear.


I am trying to find cartoons of Buddha that are offensive but don't seem to find one, if any I don't think there are many.

Another interesting reason is to find the root cause why there are not many insulting pictures of the Buddha as compared to the many deemed insulting cartoons of Muhammad? If we do a root cause analysis it will trace back to the evil laden elements in the verses of the Quran.

Another point is, if a religion promote and influence believers to be so thin skin that the slightest uneasiness is deemed offensive and stirs up the negative emotions of its believers [SOME= 300 millions] such a religion is not an effective religion for humanity in the longer run.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-13-2017 at 07:23 AM.. Reason: inappropriate photo in this forum
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is why you are ignorant of the concept of the ultimate proximate root causes.
One of the technique of root cause analysis is to ask as many 'WHYs" as possible till the reason is exhausted.
This is why you are ignorant about the root cause of evil actions by some Muslims; you do not ask enough "WHYS". You did not ask WHY most Muslims do not do evil actions. The answer is the verses in the Qur'aan teach them to do good and forbid evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note;

To solve the problem of the cartoons we proceed as follows.

1. WHY[1] did SOME Muslims go on rampage in the following evil and violent incidents.
... Muslims Continue Cartoon Rampage, US Threatened
... Answer: Because infidels drew the cartoons of prophet Muhammad.

2. WHY [2] do SOME Muslims get offended with the drawings of cartoon of Muhammad.
... Answer: Because the drawing of the cartoons of Muhammad is offensive, an insult and a threat to Islam.

3. WHY [3] is the drawing of the cartoons of Muhammad is offensive, an insult and a threat to Islam.
... Answer: Because the verses in the Quran said the drawing of any image of Muhammad is an insult and threat [fitna] to Islam.

As you can see the deeper and more proximate cause of the evil and violence is from the verses in the Quran.
Utter nonsense! Drawing of image of Muhammad isn't even mentioned in the Qur'aan.

[4.50] See how they forge the lie against Allah, and this is sufficient as a manifest sin.

[6.21] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or (he who) gives the lie to His verses; surely the wrongdoers will not be successful.

[10.17] Who is then more unjust than who forges a lie against Allah or (who) gives the lie to His verses? Surely the guilty shall not be successful.

[16.105] Only they forge the lie who do not believe in Allah's verses, and these are the liars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore IF we remove those caustic verses in the Quran, Muslims will have no basis to justify their evil and violence when the cartoon of Muhammad are drawn. There upon, if any Muslim is offended by drawings of Muhammad and commit violence, it has nothing to do with the religion of Islam.
Muslims have committed violence even though there are no verses in the Qur'aan about any image of Muhammad. The caustic verses are in your mind only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note in contrast, the drawing of cartoons of Jesus, Buddha and other religious founders do not stir their respective believers in committing those violence above.
Root cause of violence in this case was the cartoon and not the verses. If there had been no cartoons there would have been no violence towards the right charlies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The picture is supposedly offensive, but we do not hear of Buddhists all over the world going on a rampage over such pictures. Imagine what will happen if Muhammad is placed side by side with the girl in her underwear.
Why would anyone do that unless s/he wanted to be the cause of violence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Another interesting reason is to find the root cause why there are not many insulting pictures of the Buddha as compared to the many deemed insulting cartoons of Muhammad? If we do a root cause analysis it will trace back to the evil laden elements in the verses of the Quran.
The verses of the Qur'aan say nothing about the cartoon or about image of Muhammad. You are talking about the verses of the Qur'aan in ignorance about the verses of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Another point is, if a religion promote and influence believers to be so thin skin that the slightest uneasiness is deemed offensive and stirs up the negative emotions of its believers [SOME= 300 millions] such a religion is not an effective religion for humanity in the longer run.
Keep talking in ignorance about the religion that has no verses to do with the cartoons or about image (picture or drawing) of Muhammad.

Any more bright ideas about the verses of the Qur'aan that do not even exist?
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