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Old 12-26-2016, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You think in a strange way when it comes to understanding the text of the Qur'aan.

For example, the verse 3:167 is not saying "attack" or "defend" but "fight" or "defend". Let's look at what is meant by "fight":

[61.4] Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.

This is a clear reference to defensive wall against an attack on Muslims. Therefore fighting in the way of Allah is always defensive.

In the verse 3:167, "fight in the way of Allah", or defend themselves is the same thing. It is not saying "attack in the way of Allah" or defend themselves. That would make no sense.

The context of the verse is battle at Uhad when the hypocrites (fake Muslims) were having cold feet when asked to defend Madina from Meccans attack. They were all asked for their opinion as to whether Madina is defended by staying inside the city or the Meccans and their allies should be met and fought just outside the city at Uhad. It was finally decided that they should be fought outside the city. Hypocrites had refused to fight outside the city.

By the way, I know you are trying your best to find even one verse in the Qur'aan that proves 60:8-9 and 2:190-194 wrong but you are not going to find it. The context/background about any fighting on the part of Muslims is always aggression from infidels first.
Nah,

I have no intention of finding "one" verse to prove 60:8-9 nor 2:190-194 wrong.
As I had mentioned it is a question of weightage.

There are verses which convey "good" but they are merely needles in the haystack of evil verses.

Even Hitler did say good things;

Quote:
“How to achieve the moral breakdown of the enemy before the war has started — that is the problem that interests me. Whoever has experienced war at the front will want to refrain from all avoidable bloodshed.”
50 Famous Quotes by Adolf Hitler
If we research, we will note the worst dictators in the world would have said something good during their lifetime before and after the evil deeds in various circumstances.

What is critical for any rational wise person is to consider the overall net effect and consequence and not merely on one or two good statements out of the thousands of evil verses.

The ultimate assessment is the fruits of actions and consequences from the believers who are very pious, devoted and zealous to the verses from the Quran to please Allah.
The critical point is NO ONE ON EARTH can judge whether they are right or wrong in their interpretations of the DUCK-RABBIT dualistic verses.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:43 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nah,

I have no intention of finding "one" verse to prove 60:8-9 nor 2:190-194 wrong.
As I had mentioned it is a question of weightage.

There are verses which convey "good" but they are merely needles in the haystack of evil verses.

Even Hitler did say good things;



If we research, we will note the worst dictators in the world would have said something good during their lifetime before and after the evil deeds in various circumstances.

What is critical for any rational wise person is to consider the overall net effect and consequence and not merely on one or two good statements out of the thousands of evil verses.

The ultimate assessment is the fruits of actions and consequences from the believers who are very pious, devoted and zealous to the verses from the Quran to please Allah.
The critical point is NO ONE ON EARTH can judge whether they are right or wrong in their interpretations of the DUCK-RABBIT dualistic verses.
Ok? And the context of the verse where you are trying to prove what you believe is evil, fighting offensively, the verse was revealed in a patently defensive posture given the Meccan *advance* towards them... who had fleed.

This is also why I choose to ignore you for the most part... you're not here to learn. You're hear to make statements and refuse to change your stance even when presented with overwhelming evidence and an explanation of both the language and the historical context. So what's the point? Go keep typing novels that you can read yourself, I won't be paying any attention to them.
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Old 12-27-2016, 12:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Ok? And the context of the verse where you are trying to prove what you believe is evil, fighting offensively, the verse was revealed in a patently defensive posture given the Meccan *advance* towards them... who had fleed.

This is also why I choose to ignore you for the most part... you're not here to learn. You're hear to make statements and refuse to change your stance even when presented with overwhelming evidence and an explanation of both the language and the historical context. So what's the point? Go keep typing novels that you can read yourself, I won't be paying any attention to them.
Btw, have you ever done any jury duty before. I have not, but I am aware, no jury should charge the defendant as guilty if there are any reasonable doubt on the case even there appear to be overwhelming circumstantial evidences available. It is the same here, there is no way your point can be agreed upon if there are no solid objective evidence to support your case and reasonable doubt exists.

Btw, in a forum like this is up to the discretion of each member to decide upon themselves to post or reply freely within the rules. I do not post with the expectation that every one must respond to my posts nor am I expected to respond to every posts raised here.

What I have learned in forums is we will learn more and deeper from disagreements than with agreements. Both Woodrow and Khalif do not agree with me 99.9% of the time, but they have kicked me into the deeper end of the pool to learn more.
The Language of the Quran

Just let it be, que sera sera.
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Old 12-27-2016, 04:21 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have no intention of finding "one" verse to prove 60:8-9 nor 2:190-194 wrong.
As I had mentioned it is a question of weightage.
A kilo of gold is worth more than a 1000 kilos of iron.

You look for higher number at the expense of value and I look for higher value without ignoring the number.
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Old 12-27-2016, 04:55 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Even prove that the war in Islam is offensive, not defensive
Ask the question
Why Arabs Mohammed was not killed in Mecca
He was going to be killed during the night he left Mecca (before they could kill him). They did not kill him before that because he was protected by his uncle Abu Talib, the leader of Quraish in Mecca.

Quote:
Arabs in Mecca, Mohammed did not fight and let him announce what he wanted and did not follow him
They were persecuting whoever was following him.

Quote:
But after the migration of Muhammad to Medina fighting Advertise on Arab cousins
Mohammed and his disease attack on a convoy of Quraysh
And the disease attack on Muslim homes in Mecca and taking all their belongings to sell them in Syria???

Quote:
Muslims were cut off the road on the caravans of Quraysh
313 Muslims against 1000 disease Quraish who had traveled for war. Their disease was knocked out of them by 313 Muslims.

Quote:
The Koran emphasizes offensive war
Your lie, without quoting any verse.

Quote:
Because it is of divine orders in Islam
We must preach Islam by all means including war and fighting
This is the reality of Islam
And you are preaching here against Islam on the order of your friend Shaytan.

Quote:
Jews did not fight Muhammad and Christians did not fight Muhammad
They were too clever. Idol worshiping Quraish were not that clever but really stupid to attack Muhammad and Muslims.

Quote:
But Mohamed is the one who declared the law of the fighting and the war
This is really nonsense of a comment when Muhammad was attacked first but he still had forgiven them after getting back home in Mecca after 10 years of attacks on Muslims in Madina from Meccans had failed. Bye bye to idol worshiping disease in Mecca forever.

Quote:
So the war in Islam is offensive, not defensive
The war against Islam is always offensive and Islam has always defended against such disease war. Shaytans did not like it, and they still don't like it.
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Old 12-27-2016, 09:17 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 665,518 times
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1-Who followed Muhammad were on hand as the fingers
Note that the states of Mecca were guidelines, not combat


They were persecuting whoever was following him.

This is nonsense
Mecca was a free zone
Where was the worship of black stone and was also the Christian, Jewish and Persian beliefs
The community of Mecca before Islam was a society in which freedom
And not a society Jahlia as displayed by Muslims

2-And the disease attack on Muslim homes in Mecca and taking all their belongings to sell them in Syria??? ------------

Quraish who attacked a convoy they were followers of Muhammad and these were thieves and bandits

3-313 Muslims against 1000 disease Quraish who had traveled for war. Their disease was knocked out of them by 313 Muslims.-----

Which encouraged followers of Muhammad is a war booty and captives
That is why they were fighting for booty and captives
This is the essence of the Islamic invasions in the first battles

While Algarichasson follow the ethics of war, which is superior to the ethics of Muhammad in the dirty war
4-Your lie, without quoting any verse.
----this is the verse
When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way Allah is Forgiving, Mercifu ---sorat -al -toba -verse 5
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:05 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
1-Who followed Muhammad were on hand as the fingers
Note that the states of Mecca were guidelines, not combat


They were persecuting whoever was following him.
Thank you, mahasn ebne sawresho. A good deed has been written in Sijjin that is, quite likely, going to be given in your left hand with fingers.
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A kilo of gold is worth more than a 1000 kilos of iron.
Value $$$ wise I agree but note 'money' is the root of all evil.

Quote:
You look for higher number at the expense of value and I look for higher value without ignoring the number.
I take into account quantity [number] and quality [significance and weightage] in the respective context.

But in this case your point [positive to infidels] is supported by minimal verses in its respective context.

On the other hand, my point re Islam is negative to infidels is supported by 3400+ 54% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran.
[indent]Example:
Can you imagine where a husband write a book with 6,236 statements and 3,400 statements are directed at condemning [proven to be baseless] the wife as an evil person in various degrees while the other verses are praising himself as the good guy.

In this example, it is an irony for the husband to claim himself a good guy when he at the same time is cursing with contempt and condemning [baseless] the wife in 3,400 statements as evil.[indent]

Quran wise, what did I do [or born into] to deserves to be condemned to such an extent merely because I am not a Muslim. If I am in Bangladesh [phew!! I am not] and they find out what I am posting here, I will be killed.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-27-2016 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 12-28-2016, 06:28 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,045,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Value $$$ wise I agree but note 'money' is the root of all evil.

I take into account quantity [number] and quality [significance and weightage] in the respective context.

But in this case your point [positive to infidels] is supported by minimal verses in its respective context.

On the other hand, my point re Islam is negative to infidels is supported by 3400+ 54% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran.
[indent]Example:
Can you imagine where a husband write a book with 6,236 statements and 3,400 statements are directed at condemning [proven to be baseless] the wife as an evil person in various degrees while the other verses are praising himself as the good guy.

In this example, it is an irony for the husband to claim himself a good guy when he at the same time is cursing with contempt and condemning [baseless] the wife in 3,400 statements as evil.[indent]

Quran wise, what did I do [or born into] to deserves to be condemned to such an extent merely because I am not a Muslim. If I am in Bangladesh [phew!! I am not] and they find out what I am posting here, I will be killed.
And now you are a condemned but a good wife. Is that what you meant here?

Don't worry, nobody is going to kill Trump for condemning ALL Mosleums. So you too are safe.

If you are still not feeling safe in Australia, come live next door to me in the UK. I will protect you; a peaceful infidel.
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Old 12-28-2016, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And now you are a condemned but a good wife. Is that what you meant here?

Don't worry, nobody is going to kill Trump for condemning ALL Mosleums. So you too are safe.

If you are still not feeling safe in Australia, come live next door to me in the UK. I will protect you; a peaceful infidel.
My point is the Quran cannot claim itself to be a totally good holy book when 55% of its verses contain evil laden elements of various degrees.

If Trump were to stand in a Market in Ragga, Karachi, Kabul, and the likes without body guards, he would be torn to pieces immediately.
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