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Old 12-26-2016, 12:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Note this verse;
3:167. And that He might know the hypocrites, unto whom it was said: Come, fight [qātilū] in the way [sabil] of Allah, or defend [id'faʿū] yourselves.
They [hypocrites] answered: If we knew aught of [how to] fighting we would follow you.
On that day they [hypocrites] were nearer [to] disbelief than faith.
They [hypocrites] utter with their mouths a thing which is not in their hearts.
Allah is best aware of what they hide.
Come,
  1. fight [qātilū] in the way [sabil] of Allah, or
  2. defend [id'faʿū] yourselves.
give the option either to fight or defend yourselves.

This meant that Muslims are also commanded to fight either unilaterally based on certain mission and also fight for self defense.

Thus the claim that Allah only permit fighting and war for the purpose of self-defense only is false.

For example in the case of 2:244 there is no condition attached to this verse;
2:244. Fight in the Way [Sabil] of Allah, and know that Allah is Nearer, Knower.

9:111. Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers [Muslims] their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they [Muslims] shall fight in the Way [sabil] of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
It is a promise which is binding on Him [Muslim] in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.
Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye [Muslims] have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
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Old 12-26-2016, 01:05 AM
 
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You're missing what the Arabic is saying. The command was to fight or *at least* defend yourselves. Their response was to do neither.

However to your other point, I agree with you. There is offensive violent Jihad in Islam. It has very strict conditions and a lot of nullifications. So much so that for most countries in the common era, an Islamic ruler would be barred from making offensive Jihad. But still, exists.
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You're missing what the Arabic is saying. The command was to fight or *at least* defend yourselves. Their response was to do neither.

However to your other point, I agree with you. There is offensive violent Jihad in Islam. It has very strict conditions and a lot of nullifications. So much so that for most countries in the common era, an Islamic ruler would be barred from making offensive Jihad. But still, exists.
وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ نَافَقُوا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا قَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَوِ ادْفَعُوا قَالُوا لَوْ نَعْلَمُ قِتَالًا لَّاتَّبَعْنَاكُمْ هُمْ لِلْكُفْرِ يَوْمَئِذٍ أَقْرَبُ مِنْهُمْ لِلْإِيمَانِ يَقُولُونَ بِأَفْوَاهِهِم مَّا لَيْسَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَكْتُمُونَ

Is "awi" أَوِ "at least"?
I understand from the dictionary it is "or."
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ نَافَقُوا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا قَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَوِ ادْفَعُوا قَالُوا لَوْ نَعْلَمُ قِتَالًا لَّاتَّبَعْنَاكُمْ هُمْ لِلْكُفْرِ يَوْمَئِذٍ أَقْرَبُ مِنْهُمْ لِلْإِيمَانِ يَقُولُونَ بِأَفْوَاهِهِم مَّا لَيْسَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَكْتُمُونَ

Is "awi" أَوِ "at least"?
I understand from the dictionary it is "or."
Your translation of the word is correct, but drop the comma between the two statements, make them one.

Fight or defend yourselves (with either option being acceptable) is what is meant

Fight (and do what's right) or defend yourselves (and do what's wrong), doesn't make sense here. Why? This verse was revealed while the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was on his way to Uhud and some of the hypocrites claimed that there wasn't really going to be any battles, so they didn't need to go. The response here was for Allah (swt) to say either go fight, or least come along and if there is no fighting you can bolster our numbers, defend from bandits, watch over the caravan, etc...
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Your translation of the word is correct, but drop the comma between the two statements, make them one.

Fight or defend yourselves (with either option being acceptable) is what is meant

Fight (and do what's right) or defend yourselves (and do what's wrong), doesn't make sense here. Why? This verse was revealed while the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was on his way to Uhud and some of the hypocrites claimed that there wasn't really going to be any battles, so they didn't need to go. The response here was for Allah (swt) to say either go fight, or least come along and if there is no fighting you can bolster our numbers, defend from bandits, watch over the caravan, etc...
I understand the background of this is within a battle. The Quran did not mention Uhud. [That is from other sources].

My point is there are principles to be extracted from this verse within the background of a battle.
The principles relate to either "fight" or "in defense".
This meant Muslims are not exhorted to go into battle only on defensive situations but also in offensive situations as mentioned in this 3:167.
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the background of this is within a battle. The Quran did not mention Uhud. [That is from other sources].

My point is there are principles to be extracted from this verse within the background of a battle.
The principles relate to either "fight" or "in defense".
This meant Muslims are not exhorted to go into battle only on defensive situations but also in offensive situations as mentioned in this 3:167.
Except that the battle of Uhud was entirely in defense. The Meccan army organized and set out to fight the Muslims of Medina.
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:56 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Except that the battle of Uhud was entirely in defense. The Meccan army organized and set out to fight the Muslims of Medina.
In 3:167 I don't believe the verse is confined to one battle [Uhud or whatever the battle].

3:167 is an exposition of lessons to be learned from the experience.
From that experience, the lesson is to be applied to future battles of either offensive or defensive ones.

What ALLah [aka Muhammad] is saying was;
This is a lesson to be learned and in either offensive or defensive battle we undertake in the future
Thus the Muslims must take note of the lesson and the principles involved from this verse.

Since offensive and defensive battles are mentioned in this verse 3:167,
therefore the Quran did not restrict fighting to only defensive ones.

Most Muslims will insists whatever fighting the Quran allows, it can only be defensive fighting as mentioned in some verses. e.g. 2:190 'but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.'

However, I disagree and argues there are situations where Allah condone offensive fighting as in 3:167 within some very vague justifications.
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:21 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 768,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In 3:167 I don't believe the verse is confined to one battle [Uhud or whatever the battle].

3:167 is an exposition of lessons to be learned from the experience.
From that experience, the lesson is to be applied to future battles of either offensive or defensive ones.

What ALLah [aka Muhammad] is saying was;
This is a lesson to be learned and in either offensive or defensive battle we undertake in the future
Thus the Muslims must take note of the lesson and the principles involved from this verse.

Since offensive and defensive battles are mentioned in this verse 3:167,
therefore the Quran did not restrict fighting to only defensive ones.

Most Muslims will insists whatever fighting the Quran allows, it can only be defensive fighting as mentioned in some verses. e.g. 2:190 'but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.'

However, I disagree and argues there are situations where Allah condone offensive fighting as in 3:167 within some very vague justifications.
There's only one context to the verse, and that is to obey the leader of the Muslims when they call you to fight. In this particular case it was defensive. You're getting confused with what was meant by the word "defense" here because you're not looking in to the background of what was going on when the verse was revealed... which is a must for the entire Quran.

However as I said before, I don't disagree with you. There is offensive war in Islam...this is just not the verse you should be looking at in regards to this topic.
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since offensive and defensive battles are mentioned in this verse 3:167,
therefore the Quran did not restrict fighting to only defensive ones.
You think in a strange way when it comes to understanding the text of the Qur'aan.

For example, the verse 3:167 is not saying "attack" or "defend" but "fight" or "defend". Let's look at what is meant by "fight":

[61.4] Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.

This is a clear reference to defensive wall against an attack on Muslims. Therefore fighting in the way of Allah is always defensive.

In the verse 3:167, "fight in the way of Allah", or defend themselves is the same thing. It is not saying "attack in the way of Allah" or defend themselves. That would make no sense.

The context of the verse is battle at Uhad when the hypocrites (fake Muslims) were having cold feet when asked to defend Madina from Meccans attack. They were all asked for their opinion as to whether Madina is defended by staying inside the city or the Meccans and their allies should be met and fought just outside the city at Uhad. It was finally decided that they should be fought outside the city. Hypocrites had refused to fight outside the city.

By the way, I know you are trying your best to find even one verse in the Qur'aan that proves 60:8-9 and 2:190-194 wrong but you are not going to find it. The context/background about any fighting on the part of Muslims is always aggression from infidels first.
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Old 12-26-2016, 09:38 PM
 
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Even prove that the war in Islam is offensive, not defensive
Ask the question
Why Arabs Mohammed was not killed in Mecca
Arabs in Mecca, Mohammed did not fight and let him announce what he wanted and did not follow him
But after the migration of Muhammad to Medina fighting Advertise on Arab cousins
Mohammed and his disease attack on a convoy of Quraysh
Muslims were cut off the road on the caravans of Quraysh

The Koran emphasizes offensive war
Because it is of divine orders in Islam
We must preach Islam by all means including war and fighting
This is the reality of Islam
Jews did not fight Muhammad and Christians did not fight Muhammad
But Mohamed is the one who declared the law of the fighting and the war
So the war in Islam is offensive, not defensive
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