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Old 12-29-2016, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Note 14:48
14:48. On the Day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they [ALL] will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty.
From the above verse it would appear that Judgment Day has not happened yet.

14:48 state that on that Day the earth will be changed completely to other than the earth and the heaven will also changed completely.

Based on human knowledge we know that the earth has not changed totally to other than the earth from millions of years since humans first appear. Obviously there are superficial changes [tectonic plates movements, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, ice-ages, etc.] but they do not amount to be 'other than the earth.'

It is obvious the Earth has not changed drastically since the last 5000 years.

Now if the earth has not changed to other than the earth, then according to 14:48, Judgment Day has not yet happened.

If Judgment Day has not yet happened then all humans who had died since the first human [Adam] are still tarrying in limbo in the hereafter.

If all humans are still tarrying, then there are no humans in Paradise and in the final Hell at the present.

Point is no one knows when Judgment Day will happen for Allah to make Judgment on Decision Day to decide whether a Muslim will go to Paradise or Infidel will go to Hell.

Perhaps it will never happen??

Views?
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:12 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note 14:48
14:48. On the Day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they [ALL] will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty.
From the above verse it would appear that Judgment Day has not happened yet.

14:48 state that on that Day the earth will be changed completely to other than the earth and the heaven will also changed completely.

Based on human knowledge we know that the earth has not changed totally to other than the earth from millions of years since humans first appear. Obviously there are superficial changes [tectonic plates movements, volcano eruptions, earthquakes, ice-ages, etc.] but they do not amount to be 'other than the earth.'

It is obvious the Earth has not changed drastically since the last 5000 years.

Now if the earth has not changed to other than the earth, then according to 14:48, Judgment Day has not yet happened.

If Judgment Day has not yet happened then all humans who had died since the first human [Adam] are still tarrying in limbo in the hereafter.

If all humans are still tarrying, then there are no humans in Paradise and in the final Hell at the present.

Point is no one knows when Judgment Day will happen for Allah to make Judgment on Decision Day to decide whether a Muslim will go to Paradise or Infidel will go to Hell.

Perhaps it will never happen??

Views?
It has not come yet but it will happen. There should be no doubt about it.

[17.99] Do they not consider that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, is able to create their like, and He has appointed for them a doom about which there is no doubt? But the unjust do not consent to aught but denying.

First it will be the Hour which may come any time soon or later.

Then there will be a big crunch.

Then there will be new creation of heaven and earth.

[40.59] Most surely the hour is coming, there is no doubt therein, but most people do not believe.

[22.7] And because the hour is coming, there is no doubt about it; and because Allah shall raise up those who are in the graves.

Then the resurrection day.

[45.26] Say: Allah gives you life, then He makes you die, then will He gather you to the day of resurrection wherein is no doubt, but most people do not know.

[4.87] Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?

Then the Judgment Day.

[82.1] When the heaven becomes cleft asunder,
[82.2] And when the stars become dispersed,
[82.3] And when the seas are made to flow forth,
[82.4] And when the graves are laid open,
[82.5] Every soul shall know what it has sent before and held back.
[82.6] O man ! What has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,
[82.7] Who created you, then made you complete, then made you symmetrical?
[82.8] Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
[82.9] Nay! But you give the lie to the judgment day,
[82.10] And most surely there are keepers over you
[82.11] Honorable recorders,
[82.12] They know what you do.
[82.13] Most surely the righteous are in bliss,
[82.14] And most surely the wicked are in burning fire,
[82.15] They shall enter it on the day of judgment.
[82.16] And they shall by no means be absent from it.
[82.17] And what will make you realize what the day of judgement is?
[82.18] Again, what will make you realize what the day of judgment Is?
[82.19] The day on which no soul shall control anything for (another) soul; and the Command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.

Then live happily ever after in bliss, or neither live nor die in abyss.

Good enough?
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It has not come yet but it will happen. There should be no doubt about it.

[17.99] Do they not consider that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, is able to create their like, and He has appointed for them a doom about which there is no doubt? But the unjust do not consent to aught but denying.

First it will be the Hour which may come any time soon or later.

Then there will be a big crunch.

Then there will be new creation of heaven and earth.

[40.59] Most surely the hour is coming, there is no doubt therein, but most people do not believe.

[22.7] And because the hour is coming, there is no doubt about it; and because Allah shall raise up those who are in the graves.

Then the resurrection day.

[45.26] Say: Allah gives you life, then He makes you die, then will He gather you to the day of resurrection wherein is no doubt, but most people do not know.

[4.87] Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?

Then the Judgment Day.

[82.1] When the heaven becomes cleft asunder,
[82.2] And when the stars become dispersed,
[82.3] And when the seas are made to flow forth,
[82.4] And when the graves are laid open,
[82.5] Every soul shall know what it has sent before and held back.
[82.6] O man ! What has beguiled you from your Lord, the Gracious one,
[82.7] Who created you, then made you complete, then made you symmetrical?
[82.8] Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
[82.9] Nay! But you give the lie to the judgment day,
[82.10] And most surely there are keepers over you
[82.11] Honorable recorders,
[82.12] They know what you do.
[82.13] Most surely the righteous are in bliss,
[82.14] And most surely the wicked are in burning fire,
[82.15] They shall enter it on the day of judgment.
[82.16] And they shall by no means be absent from it.
[82.17] And what will make you realize what the day of judgement is?
[82.18] Again, what will make you realize what the day of judgment Is?
[82.19] The day on which no soul shall control anything for (another) soul; and the Command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.

Then live happily ever after in bliss, or neither live nor die in abyss.

Good enough?
I understand that is a 'promise' offered by Allah in the Quran to those who submit and enter into a contract [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah.

Quote:
25:16. Therein abiding, they [Muslims] have all that they desire. It is for thy Lord a promise that must be fulfilled.
I believe most Muslims think they will go to heaven quite immediate and for martyrs it is almost immediate after a very short tarry period.

The point is the reality of it is hard to come by.
14:48 indicate that no Muslims who has died since Adam is now in Paradise. All and One will have to wait for the Big Crunch [as you indicated] which may or may not happen at all.

If one were to tarry for billion of years and not being able to do anything till J-Day, would that be a very lonely state to be in?

Btw, Do Christians go straight to heaven after physical death or are they subjected to such a waiting period like 14:48?

Last edited by Continuum; 12-29-2016 at 11:18 PM..
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand that is a 'promise' offered by Allah in the Quran to those who submit and enter into a contract [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah.
Promise is that Judgment Day will occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe most Muslims think they will go to heaven quite immediate and for martyrs it is almost immediate after a very short tarry period.
How do you know that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is the reality of it is hard to come by.
What reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
14:48 indicate that no Muslims who has died since Adam is now in Paradise. All and One will have to wait for the Big Crunch [as you indicated] which may or may not happen at all.
The Qur'aan predicted it 1400 years ago. Scientists have only recently predicted such an event. The quaking then will not be local but of the whole earth to form a new earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If one were to tarry for billion of years and not being able to do anything till J-Day, would that be a very lonely state to be in?
No. You wouldn't even know about it. Are you aware where you are when you are actually asleep? If you are not aware during that time when your body is not completely dead, how are you going to even know your state when your body is dead and mixed in with its original source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, Do Christians go straight to heaven after physical death or are they subjected to such a waiting period like 14:48?
All will have to wait but they won't know during that period that they are waiting. It would be at the end of 'waiting period', when they wake up, that they will realize that they did tarry but won't know how long.
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Promise is that Judgment Day will occur.
Yes, that is only a promise and till the present it has not happened yet. It may happen a billion years from now or perhaps never.

Quote:
How do you know that?
I have been reading in various forum and articles. Usually it is presumed they will reached Paradise quite soon after physical death.
Some will say their dead relatives are looking down at them from Paradise.

Here is one example;

Quote:
The emir was a young French-Turkish citizen named Oussama, and on their first meeting he tried to convince the journalist he knew as Abu Hamza, that paradise awaits him if he carries out a suicide mission.
“Towards paradise, that is the path,” Oussama said, a chilling smile on his face. “Come, brother, let’s go to paradise, our women are waiting for us there, with angels as servants.
“You will have a palace, a winged horse of gold and rubies.”
‘Come, brother, let’s go to paradise’: French journalist infiltrated jihadist cell | South China Morning Post
In the above there is no mentioned of a time period, so it is take for granted it will be quite immediate. I believe that is what suicide bombers really believed or are led to believe.


Quote:
What reality?
It is relative to human reality.
Most humans and believers are entrenched in human reality and time and thus will believe based on such a basis.
Thus extrapolating from the current reality, they will think they will go to Paradise within a short while as in human time.

But the REAL point per Allah in 14:48 is the "Big Crunch" may not happen within the next one billion years.

So the reality in human terms at the present is a great distance from the REALITY as specified in 14:48.

I believed many Muslims will be disappointed when they understand the reality of 14:48.

Quote:
The Qur'aan predicted it 1400 years ago. Scientists have only recently predicted such an event. The quaking then will not be local but of the whole earth to form a new earth.
I am not into this. Point is religion and Science just cannot be mixed.

Quote:
No. You wouldn't even know about it. Are you aware where you are when you are actually asleep? If you are not aware during that time when your body is not completely dead, how are you going to even know your state when your body is dead and mixed in with its original source?
The problem is not the sleep, but when a believer believes in the present conscious state of the likely billion-years-wait for J-DAY.
The likely billion-years-wait for J-DAY and such a potentially long time is likely to be a disappointment.

Quote:
All will have to wait but they won't know during that period that they are waiting. It would be at the end of 'waiting period', when they wake up, that they will realize that they did tarry but won't know how long.
Let's get the view from Christians if any and with supporting verses from the Bible. Are you aware of any?
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, that is only a promise and till the present it has not happened yet. It may happen a billion years from now or perhaps never.
There is no question about it being never. The question is only about when.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have been reading in various forum and articles. Usually it is presumed they will reached Paradise quite soon after physical death.
Some will say their dead relatives are looking down at them from Paradise.

Here is one example;


In the above there is no mentioned of a time period, so it is take for granted it will be quite immediate. I believe that is what suicide bombers really believed or are led to believe.
It only goes to prove that most people and suicide bombers do not read the Qur'aan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is relative to human reality.
Most humans and believers are entrenched in human reality and time and thus will believe based on such a basis.
Thus extrapolating from the current reality, they will think they will go to Paradise within a short while as in human time.
Yeah, human reality. Santa Claus lives near the North Pole somewhere on the side of Greenland and comes out only during a very long night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But the REAL point per Allah in 14:48 is the "Big Crunch" may not happen within the next one billion years.
Or it may happen on 1st January. Happy New Year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So the reality in human terms at the present is a great distance from the REALITY as specified in 14:48.
It is not specified regarding the distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believed many Muslims will be disappointed when they understand the reality of 14:48.
Only the suicide bombers. Then again, they won't even know what happened until the resurrection day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am not into this. Point is religion and Science just cannot be mixed.
They do mix perfectly. Science has supported religion and religion has supported science. I like both fields. I have yet to see one field proving the other field wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The problem is not the sleep, but when a believer believes in the present conscious state of the likely billion-years-wait for J-DAY.
The likely billion-years-wait for J-DAY and such a potentially long time is likely to be a disappointment.
Don't worry, it will all seem a very short time on the resurrection day. I don't think you would be occupied on that day with how long you had tarried but what next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Let's get the view from Christians if any and with supporting verses from the Bible. Are you aware of any?
John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

Christians have waited for over 2000 years now and all those rooms are still being prepared. When the rooms are ready, Jesus will come back to take the Christians with him. That's when he will tell them that he was never a Christian but a Muslim. ALLAHU AKBAR
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
They do mix perfectly. Science has supported religion and religion has supported science. I like both fields. I have yet to see one field proving the other field wrong.
The central core of Science is Empiricism, i.e. based on empirical proofs and theories that can be tested, repeated and verified by any one.
What is critical is the utilities that can be produced from the theories of Science and its objectivity.

Theistic religion is based on faith, i.e. proofs without empirical evidences that can be tested, repeated and verified by any one. If any one asked for direct empirical evidence of God, there is none.

Quote:
I have yet to see one field proving the other field wrong.
This is an irrelevant point.
What is relevant is for each field to prove itself objectively.

There is no way theism can prove itself as tenable within reality with empirical evidences except that it is accepted via faith for emotional and psychological reasons. Theism do work emotionally and psychologically but that is the furthest utility one can claim for it.

Whilst Science is very useful for mankind and is objective it is not to be taken as ultimately great as Science is a double-edge blade that can cut both ways, i.e. for good and for evil. What is ultimately great is Philosophy which has the wisdom to balance and tilt good over evil.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The central core of Science is Empiricism, i.e. based on empirical proofs and theories that can be tested, repeated and verified by any one.
What is critical is the utilities that can be produced from the theories of Science and its objectivity.
Yes, it is about what can be tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted and smelt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Theistic religion is based on faith, i.e. proofs without empirical evidences that can be tested, repeated and verified by any one. If any one asked for direct empirical evidence of God, there is none.
Faith, as you mention, is not about something that can be scientifically tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted or smelt. It is about unseen that science has yet to prove or disapprove scientifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is an irrelevant point.
What is relevant is for each field to prove itself objectively.
Where is conflict then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no way theism can prove itself as tenable within reality with empirical evidences except that it is accepted via faith for emotional and psychological reasons. Theism do work emotionally and psychologically but that is the furthest utility one can claim for it.
Science hasn't proved theism to be wrong. Had it been wrong, science would have proven it wrong by now. That's why many scientists have been religious and many religious people work in the field of science. There is no conflict between the fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whilst Science is very useful for mankind and is objective it is not to be taken as ultimately great as Science is a double-edge blade that can cut both ways, i.e. for good and for evil. What is ultimately great is Philosophy which has the wisdom to balance and tilt good over evil.
Islamic philosophy! Repel evil with good (with jihadan kabiran).
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, it is about what can be tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted and smelt.
Have you done the above with the empirical existence of God?
Is such a proof available for any one to test and verify it.

Quote:
Faith, as you mention, is not about something that can be scientifically tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted or smelt. It is about unseen that science has yet to prove or disapprove scientifically.
Faith is not about something that can be scientifically tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted or smelt,PERIOD.
There is question of whether it need proven at all.

Quote:
Science hasn't proved theism to be wrong. Had it been wrong, science would have proven it wrong by now. That's why many scientists have been religious and many religious people work in the field of science. There is no conflict between the fields.
Why should Science be bothered at all to prove theism is right or wrong? That is not the business of Science as defined.

It is the job of philosophy to rationalize with wisdom and use various tools like Science and others to demonstrate that the basis of theism cannot be empirically real and show that the purpose of theistic faith to deal with emotional and psychological related to existential dilemma.
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Old 01-01-2017, 06:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Have you done the above with the empirical existence of God?
Is such a proof available for any one to test and verify it.
I am a religious person and not a scientist. Religion is field about unseen rather than something that can be tested scientifically. If you insist that it needs to be proved correct scientifically then I can insist it to be proved incorrect scientifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Faith is not about something that can be scientifically tested, seen, felt, heard, tasted or smelt,PERIOD.
Then why ask me silly question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is question of whether it need proven at all.
Then why insist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why should Science be bothered at all to prove theism is right or wrong? That is not the business of Science as defined.
Then science is not in conflict with religion nor religion is with science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the job of philosophy to rationalize with wisdom and use various tools like Science and others to demonstrate that the basis of theism cannot be empirically real and show that the purpose of theistic faith to deal with emotional and psychological related to existential dilemma.
In other words, it is only an opinion. The philosophy of Islam is, repel evil with good. If that does not work in the first instance, give it taste of its own medicine and let it destroy itself.
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