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Old 12-31-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Angels are perfect Muslims created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

As far as I know the only creatures that have the ability to stop being Muslim are Man and Djinn. and the only created life forms that have eternal life are Angels, Djinn and Humans. If there are others we have not yet been informed of such.
I often come across such a claim that angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I have scanned the Quran [Pickthall] on verses related to 'angels' and I did not come across any verses that assert angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I don't agree that we can assume "angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims" just because such a point is not mentioned in the Quran.

Any verse to the contrary?
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:47 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I often come across such a claim that angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I have scanned the Quran [Pickthall] on verses related to 'angels' and I did not come across any verses that assert angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I don't agree that we can assume "angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims" just because such a point is not mentioned in the Quran.

Any verse to the contrary?
[66.6] O you who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.

Now you find any verse to the contrary. There is none.

Woodrow LI is correct.
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Old 01-01-2017, 08:07 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Moderator cut: Quoted post deleted.
I will have to decline the request; I want you to keep collecting the data in ignorance about the verses of the Qur'aan. It's your research; not mine.

Last edited by mensaguy; 01-07-2017 at 09:20 AM.. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I often come across such a claim that angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I have scanned the Quran [Pickthall] on verses related to 'angels' and I did not come across any verses that assert angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims.

I don't agree that we can assume "angels are created without free will and with no ability to cease being Muslims" just because such a point is not mentioned in the Quran.

Any verse to the contrary?
It is possible you are misunderstanding what the message of the Qur'an is. It is not an explanation of Islam nor of Islamic beliefs. People performed Islam long before the Qur'an was reveled. The Qur'an came because people had stopped performing Islam, it is a warning and guide for them to return to the perfomance of Islam.

That which is correct in previous teaching need not be repeated. The belief in the nature of Angels is one of those things.

To learn what is believed about Angels one has to look in the teachings of Islam.. The Teachings of Islam do not come from the Qur'an

The teachings of Islam come from the Prophets(pbut) including Muhammad(saws)

In order to explain the existence of the angels, one must know the nature of the angels. From the Hadith we get the following information:


Quote:
The angels are created from light' and are invisible.
2. They do not have any free will or an independent will to act on their own. That is they have only a one-dimensional nature, something like a programmed robot

3. They carry out without question all the Commands (laws) of Allah and do not oppose or neglect them in any way.

Like everything in the Universe, day and night they are engaged in praising and glorifying Allah and are never tired of this.

They carry out their functions honestly, efficiently and responsibly and are never guilty of shirking work.
6. The number of angels is only known to Allah, however four of them are well known: Gabriel (conveys Allah's revelations and messages to the Prophets); Israfil (by Allah's Command will blow into the Trumpet on the Day of Resurrection); Michael (arranges for rainfall and supply of provisions to the creatures' of Allah, with His Command); and Izrail (takes people's souls at the time of death).

7. Two angels, called 'Munkar' and 'Nakir' arc sent to the graves to question a person after his/her death.

The Muslim Belief in Angels
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is possible you are misunderstanding what the message of the Qur'an is. It is not an explanation of Islam nor of Islamic beliefs. People performed Islam long before the Qur'an was reveled. The Qur'an came because people had stopped performing Islam, it is a warning and guide for them to return to the perfomance of Islam.

That which is correct in previous teaching need not be repeated. The belief in the nature of Angels is one of those things.

To learn what is believed about Angels one has to look in the teachings of Islam.. The Teachings of Islam do not come from the Qur'an

The teachings of Islam come from the Prophets(pbut) including Muhammad(saws)

In order to explain the existence of the angels, one must know the nature of the angels. From the Hadith we get the following information:
The principle is;

Islam-wise, the Quran [revealed to Muhammad] is the only source that contain the MESSAGE of Allah and this is fixed within the book with 114 chapters [of n letters, words, statements, verses] in Quranic Arabic.
In principle there is no way, the MESSAGE of Allah can be conveyed other than the above Book.
Can you justify otherwise?

It is true the DEEN [so named Islam] was practiced by humans since Adam till Muhammad's time. But all the previous texts were corrupted [as claimed] thus there is nothing that can represent the original Islam-of-old at all.
The only set of texts that can represent the MESSAGE [Islam] of Allah is the Quran revealed to Muhammad during the period 710 AD to 732 AD via angel Gabriel.

The Quran is based on recitations that Muhammad declared are "Surahs" from Allah he got from Angel Gabriel. Thus the 114 chapters of Surah are the only representative of Islam from Allah.

As for the Ahadith there is no direct declaration by Muhammad that such and such hadiths are declared as revelation from Allah through Gabriel. One cannot assumed 100% of whatever is said or acted by Muhammad are direct revelations from Allah. For one thing Muhammad is merely a human being and thus is vulnerable to sin. Thus the CONTROL is whatever is to be valid with divine authority from Muhammad must comply with the Quran's direct revelations as declared by Muhammad himself.
Allah revealed in many verses, the sole duty of the Messenger is to deliver the message like a 'parrot' or 'tape recorder'. [conveyor, reminder, warner, not a warder, not a guardian]

Therefore whatever is said of the angels in the Ahadith cannot be from Allah unless it is verified, conformed and complied with what is stated in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-09-2017 at 09:07 PM..
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The principle is;

Islam-wise, the Quran [revealed to Muhammad] is the only source that contain the MESSAGE of Allah and this is fixed within the book with 114 chapters [of n letters, words, statements, verses] in Quranic Arabic.
In principle there is no way, the MESSAGE of Allah can be conveyed other than the above Book.
Can you justify otherwise?

It is true the DEEN [so named Islam] was practiced by humans since Adam till Muhammad's time. But all the previous texts were corrupted [as claimed] thus there is nothing that can represent the original Islam-of-old at all.
The only set of texts that can represent the MESSAGE [Islam] of Allah is the Quran revealed to Muhammad during the period 710 AD to 732 AD via angel Gabriel.

The Quran is based on recitations that Muhammad declared are "Surahs" from Allah he got from Angel Gabriel. Thus the 114 chapters of Surah are the only representative of Islam from Allah.

As for the Ahadith there is no direct declaration by Muhammad that such and such hadiths are declared as revelation from Allah through Gabriel. One cannot assumed 100% of whatever is said or acted by Muhammad are direct revelations from Allah. For one thing Muhammad is merely a human being and thus is vulnerable to sin. Thus the CONTROL is whatever is to be valid with divine authority from Muhammad must comply with the Quran's direct revelations as declared by Muhammad himself.
Allah revealed in many verses, the sole duty of the Messenger is to deliver the message like a 'parrot' or 'tape recorder'. [conveyor, reminder, warner, not a warder, not a guardian]

Therefore whatever is said of the angels in the Ahadith cannot be from Allah unless it is verified, conformed and complied with what is stated in the Quran.
Actually it does come from Allaah(swt) as Allaah(swt) stated we are to follow the teachings and example of Muhammad(saws)
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