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Old 01-02-2017, 05:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The traduction means with their lives. This is the meaning of nafs in arabic in this context and it is not possible to deny this, unless you are a better expert in fusha than all the translators. I have read multiple translations in different languages and the meaning is always the same.
The word used in the Arabic Qur'aan is "wa-anfusihim". It does not mean "and their lives". Arabic for "life" is not "nafs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
You cannot have your own translation.
Of course not!
Isn't the translations of ALL the other translators their own translation? They differ between "their lives", "their selves", "their parsons", "their human resources", "themselves", "their lives (their sense of self)" and "their souls". Do you know why they differ? The majority translate as "their persons" and "their lives". Is "persons" the same as "lives"?

One must try to understand the Arabic word in the verse "anfusihim". It is not ḥyāhum (their life).

"anfusihim" is not their lives but their "selves", "their souls" "their persons", basically "themselves".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
As for your comment on Peshawar, i don't see how it is relevant to the discussion.
The Jihadists who had gone into Peshawar school with their guns and killed 143 children, were not striving with their lives even though they were killed by the security forces. It was the security forces that were striving with their "selves", "persons" and "their souls" in the name of Allah trying to help humanity. Therefore, the former is not "jihad" or "striving with souls" but the latter. And it must be understood in that sense.
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I encountered the same problem with Khalif who is fond of forcing his own personal translation and interpretation to change Allah intended meaning of the verse.
And I too have faced the problem of Continuum telling me what is Allah's intended meaning of the verse. This phrase, "Allah's intended meaning" has come from Continuum, and I find it odd that he seems to know Allah's "intended" meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case to follow "money" with "lives" is the most appropriate.
How do "lives" (plural of "life") follow money? I wish I knew the secret code; my life too could follow money.

Wait a sec, does "amwālihim" mean "their moneys" or "their possessions"/"wealth"? If not then lives do not follow moneys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In contrast to follow "money" with "nafs" [impulse control] which is not in context with other related verses of the same context.
"nafs" is not impulse control. It is "self" (yourself/myself). That's why the majority of the 50 translators translated it as "their person(s)" or "their self", "themselves", their souls", "their selves" and "human resources".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a list of English translation for 4:95.
None of these translations allude to nafs.
Wrong! All of those who knew that the word in the verse is plural of "nafs", did not translate it as "lives".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most translators translate as 'lives' and a few used 'person' selves, themselves which is the same as puting their lives on the line.
23 out of 50 is not most. Most did not translate it as "lives". The word used in the Qur'an (anfusihim) is definitely plural of the Arabic word "nafs" (their selves). "Nafs" is not "life" but "self", "soul" and "person" in term of individual. Each person is different "soul" or different "nafs".
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Old 01-02-2017, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

Wrong! All of those who knew that the word in the verse is plural of "nafs", did not translate it as "lives".

23 out of 50 is not most. Most did not translate it as "lives". The word used in the Qur'an (anfusihim) is definitely plural of the Arabic word "nafs" (their selves). "Nafs" is not "life" but "self", "soul" and "person" in term of individual. Each person is different "soul" or different "nafs".
The literal translation is "with their own persons" this unequivocally means that they put their lives on the line when doing jihad. As the OP pointed out, the context in the sentence is clear.

One of the verses even says the believers who are not handicapped. After reading this, only bad faith could lead someone to try to change the meaning of the verse.

Below is compelling evidence :

The following verse refers to the battle of Tabuk, and how some people responded when they were called to prepare for war against the Romans :

[9:81] The sedentary rejoiced in their staying behind the messenger of God, and hated to strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. They said, "Let us not mobilize in this heat!" Say, "The fire of Hell is much hotter," if they could only comprehend.

"bi amwaalihim wa anfusihim" is also used in this verse.

Honesty is essential when discussing religion. You are only deceiving yourself, not anyone else.

Last edited by Sorel36; 01-02-2017 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 01-02-2017, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Appreciate if we could deal with this issue on wa-anfushim; nafs; NFS in this NEW OP.
4:95 wa-anfusihim وَأَنْفُسِهِمْ = "and their Lives"?

I would prefer to keep this OP to the subject of What is Jihad [Quranic Language]?
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Old 01-02-2017, 10:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
mahasn sawresho,

Thanks.
I start an OP for keep sake and future reference.
this an the views of Muslim--------------
-------------------------------

Second: Jihad by force, so the verse: {Not equal spectators of believers is an initial damage and the Mujahideen in the way of Allah with their wealth and themselves Fadlallah mujahideen with their wealth and themselves on the laggards degree and both Allah promised Fadlallah mujahideen on the laggards great reward} (al-nesaa: 95) , intended word (jihad) in this verse and the like Jihad infidels in the battlefield, as evidenced by the verse: {} with their wealth and themselves. It is like this, saying the Almighty: {and Tjahidon in the way of Allah with your wealth and yourselves (al-saf-11). And more word (jihad) in the Qur'an came by this meaning to. This type of jihad is called Jihad by the sword and fight.
Secondly, it is linked to its predecessor, which is that (jihad) is added to any other word, there is no Islamic Jihad, jihad against non-Muslim, and there is a legitimate struggle and jihad is illegal, but only Jihad
But only jihad, and so call it what you want the names, but the name of jihad. It was therefore important in this context not to confuse the concept of jihad in Islam, the concept of (holy war) in Western literature.
------------------------------------------------
We could say
The word jihad if he was with the word for God's sake
This refers explicitly to the holy war
-----------------------------
The term jihad for the sake of God is synonymous to the word etc. It is fighting
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the final phase of stress
-----------------------------------
What is meant by the four stages to this Islamic legislation
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Old 01-02-2017, 10:56 PM
 
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Define the objectives of jihad to two goals only two and confined all types in which almost two defensive Jihad, Jihad demand, which is jihad either jihad in defense of Muslims and Islam, the Quran or Jihad utmost to spread the teachings of Islam and the laws of life and society as a benefit of the religion of all peoples, languages and ethnic groups, and as a redemption of the land of every darkness
-------------------

Rush lights and heavies and strive with your wealth and yourselves in the way of Allah is better for you if you know ----
---------------

Those who believed and migrated and struggled in the way of Allah with their wealth and themselves the greatest degree of God and those are the winners --------
---------------------

Not equal spectators of believers is an initial damage and the Mujahideen in the way of Allah with their wealth and themselves Mujahideen Fadlallah their wealth and their laggards on both the degree and the promise of Allah and Mujahideen Fadlallah on laggards great reward -----
-----------------------
In this verse sweeten the Jihad-
---------------------

Narrated from Abu Huraira in Sahih Bukhari (26), Sahih Muslim (83):

Jihad asked the Messenger of Allah any work better? He said: faith in God and His Messenger. It was said: Then what? Jihad for the sake of Allah said. It was said: Then what? He said: accepted Hajj., True talk--------------------------
----------------------------------

Note this opinion

it refers to the attack Jihad,

a demand that the Islamic state is stable steady state, and then seek to remove regulations that prevent people from accepting the truth, and make it possible for acceptance of the right of peoples, it is called Jihad Jihad demand, means: Request enemy in their own home.--------------------
---------------------------------------
Jihad is the most sublime Islamic values, and different types have new ways of jihad appear with the passage of time--------------
-----------------------
Note this opinion

الجهاد الاكتروني

Jihad-mail
Jihad-mail, which is a fact that some professional computer, and they have a familiarity in ways that computing the destruction and theft of sites and programs the private Israeli sites-mail and e-piracy or are against Islam from terrorism or Israeli and dissemination of counter her thought with bulletins awareness and show the Zionist crimes of the Western world.------
-------------------------------
https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AC%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AF
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:51 AM
 
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About 4 years ago, I went to visit my daughter-in-law's father in Bahawalpur (Pakistan). We were talking about his eldest daughter (not my daughter-in-law) in Pakistan having to travel 50 miles every day from her family home to teach in a State school in another city. I said to him, it must be tough for her in that society. He said that his daughter is doing jihad by travelling so far to earn her salary.

Obviously the guy in Pakistan knew the true meanings of jihad (struggle and striving in difficult circumstances).

Even during a situation of war, it is a struggle to survive when under attack.

Criminals have hijacked this term for other means. Undoing the wrong done must be our first aim. Media can help put things right but can we make the blind to see?

Now that is another jihad that is not going to be easy!
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:06 PM
 
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OP, there is no secret or mystery. Jihad an nafs means struggling against your ego, your inner desires and impulses.

Jihad fi sabilillah means fighting/struggling/making an effort for a cause, the cause of God that is. This is an action you undertake by speaking, writing, accomplishing something for God, or fighting. It is most often used in the latter sense. This could be defensively, or offensively.

As for holy war, this is a christian concept. I note you opened two separate threads for the same term, but in the Quran or in arabic the is no difference in the meaning of the word. The Quran was revealed in arabic and is interpreted with the meanings of the arabic words that form the verses.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since you read Arabic, would appreciate if you could open up a Arabic Dictionary (MSA) and find out what are the meanings listed for the term جهاد [J H D].
If جهاد = holy war or fight for Sabil of Allah in the dictionary, then you cannot say that meaning should not be included in the dictionary. What is critical is the necessary qualifications and context.

If you look at the English dictionary for 'strive' you will note the dictionary list a few meanings with various explanations and context.
see: Strive | Define Strive at Dictionary.com

Question: So what are the various meanings of جهاد listed in a [or most] MSA dictionary [not a Quranic Dictionary]?


You are right on this.
But it is not wrong for a "Holy War" to mean Jihad [the referent] in an English Language Dictionary or even MSA dictionary [to be confirmed].
A good English dictionary will give an etymological understanding of when and possibly how 'jihad = holy war" [referent] came about or originated.

Point is no one on Earth can be definite with the above except Allah.
The fact is Allah [if exists] will not appear empirically [or other verifiable means] on earth to decide.

The term jihad = holy war in the English Language can be traced from the following;



So the point is, it cannot be precise if we are merely assert in English 'jihad = holy war", full stop!
When one asserts in English 'jihad = holy war" it must be attached with the above qualifications as in 1-5 above. The above with qualifications 1-5 is as factual it can be, will avoid confusions and offense to all Muslims and Muslim apologists.

Note my usual qualifications, Muslims [SOME not all] and Islam [partly not wholly] were critically relevant.
Yes the MSA dictionaries often do translate Jihad as Holy War as that is becoming a common usage of the word. but common word definitions do change over time. For example the word gay did not always relate to Homosexuality and Molasses was not always the name of a sweet syrup derifed from sugar cane. To know what Jihad meant at the time of the Qur'an you have to know the entomology of the word. MSA Dictionaries give the current definitions, which do not always agree with Qur'anic definitions.

While a "holy war" could be a jihad, Jihad does not specifically mean "Holy War"

From a Non-Muslim source This is what is required for a "Holy war" to be a Jihad

Quote:
What can justify Jihad?

There are a number of reasons, but the Qur'an is clear that self-defence is always the underlying cause.

Permissable reasons for military Jihad:

Self-defence
Strengthening Islam
Protecting the freedom of Muslims to practise their faith
Protecting Muslims against oppression, which could include overthrowing a tyrannical ruler
Punishing an enemy who breaks an oath
Putting right a wrong
What a Jihad is not

A war is not a Jihad if the intention is to:

Force people to convert to Islam
Conquer other nations to colonise them
Take territory for economic gain
Settle disputes
Demonstrate a leader's power


BBC - Religions - Islam: Jihad
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Old 01-03-2017, 05:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Jihad is not :
Conquer other nations to colonise them
This part is incorrect. Muslim nations do have a God given right to conquer other nations in order to spread the message of Islam (when the intention is correct), which is exactly what the first generations of muslims accomplished. The majority of the Arab countries of today, were conquered by the early muslims.

Turkey, Chechnya, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Persia, and Spain were also conquered by muslims who spread the faith in these new territories. There is no shame in this, as all nations at some point or another saw there was an interest in conquering new territories. Locals were not forced to convert, but Islam became the ruling religion. Islam did not go from being practiced by a few thousand people in the arabian peninsula, to ruling several european, african, and middle eastern countries without military action.

Is America ashamed of the vietnam or korean wars ? I personally think these wars were necessary to prevent the spreading of falsehood (in this case, communism).

Umar Ibn Khattab for example conquered most of the middle east, including Palestine. The Prophet peace and blessings upon him said that Allah put the truth on Umar's tongue. Some other hadiths about Umar :

لو كان بعدى نبى لكان عمر بن الخطاب
If there were to be a prophet after me, indeed he would be Umar, son of Khattab. [Sunan Tirmidhi, Hadith 3686]

ما زلنا أعزة منذ أسلم عمر
"We have become mighty since Umar became Muslim." [Sahih al-Bukhari, Book of the Virtues of the Companions, Hadith 3481]



There is a trend nowadays to deny the meaning of the jihad, or limit it in a way which would make it impossible. A better approach is to explain the truth entirely, as God does not order evil, or transgression. Jihad is an integral part of the religion, as is believing in it.

There is a wisdom behind jihad, including offensive jihad. It exposes falsehood for what it really is and removes a corrupt system to replace it with something better and does not aim to replace an existing population with another one, or pillage their resources, or anything detrimental to the well being of the people of the land . This is why Bosnians, Sudanese, Albanese, southern Bulgarians and Chechens are muslims to this day.

As a matter of fact, fighting offensively was already the way of the biblical Prophets. Joshua conquered Palestine, and David and Solomon strengthened the position of the muslims of that time through military action (sura an naml is a perfect example of Solomon's perspective on the matter). As strengthening the islamic nation, is strengthening the religion.

If we look at history, the only religion which justified colonization coupled with mass murder, enslavement, extermination, theft of resources and forced conversions is the christian religion. Religious edicts and biased biblical interpretations condoned those actions. Despite all this, south americans, caribbeans, africans and african americans were still honest enough to distinguish between the Bible, and the crimes perpretrated in its name by the christians. To this day, these people are still convinced of the truth they found by reading the Bible and have kept the religion brought to them by their former oppressors.

Last edited by Sorel36; 01-03-2017 at 06:31 PM..
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