U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-06-2017, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You do agree with them that their actions are Islamic and the actions of peaceful Muslims are not Islamic.

You are doing nothing of the sort. All you are doing is qualifying their actions with the Qur'aan in ignorance about the Qur'aan. In other words, they are just as ignorant about the Qur'aan as you are.

So far, all you have revealed is your ignorance about the Qur'aan.

You are the problem because you qualify their actions with the verses of the Qur'an in ignorance about the Qur'aan. From this, the terrorists take great comfort that at least one infidel thinks that their actions are Islamic even if the peaceful Muslims do not think so. Therefore, you are the biggest problem because you do not let us say that these terrorists are not complying with the Qur'aan. You simply do not understand the damage you are doing to humanity by not blaming the criminals.

Another comment in ignorance! Evil is not Islamic but unislamic.

This is definitely immature minded suggestion. It is full of ignorance about the Qur'aan. It proves my point that you think jihadist (English style) are the only mature minded Muslims and the rest of peaceful Muslims are not mature minded. It is very stupid to suggest that the vast majority of Muslims that is peaceful should be like jihadists to become mature minded.

You would not have made such stupid suggestion if you had understood the Qur'aan properly. Instead of blaming the criminals, you are blaming the peaceful Muslims. No wonder the jihadists are laughing their heads off at your ignorance about the Qur'aan. They would love to see more like you blaming us rather than them.

There is only one solution:

Get rid of ignorance about the Qur'aan from the minds of jihadists and people like you. That way the jihadists will learn not to kill peaceful people and you will learn not to blame the peaceful Muslims..
You have proven by your own interpretations that you are wrong in your interpretation.
Re 51:56 [with additions and changes] you are the only one with a different view from the rest of Muslims and non-Muslims I have read off.
Show me one views that is the same as your 51:56 [with additions and changes].
On the other hand, my views of 51:56 is the same with every one's else.
There are other interpretation e.g. 49:14 where you are one against every one else.
This prove your interpretation of the Quran is not credible and is it you who are interpreting the major issues of the Quran in ignorance.

Therefore your claim that I am interpreting the Quran in ignorance is wrong.

Quote:
From this, the terrorists take great comfort that at least one infidel thinks that their actions are Islamic even if the peaceful Muslims do not think so. Therefore, you are the biggest problem because you do not let us say that these terrorists are not complying with the Qur'aan. You simply do not understand the damage you are doing to humanity by not blaming the criminals.
This is really a screwed-up kind of thinking.

If I believe and agree that what Hitler did was complying 100% with Main Kemf, what is wrong with that.

What I am stating is the jihadists and other evil prone Muslims are comply with a part % with the Quran.
There are evil laden verses in the Quran.
The evil prone has been quoting from the Quran to justify their evil deeds.
If I were to claim the evil prone Muslims do not comply with the Quran, then I will be cheating my self intellectually.

Quote:
Get rid of ... people like you.
This is very personal, evil and violent. Is this the intention of you as a Muslim inspired the Quran?
I am not surprised with some Muslims who are evil prone who will be inspired by the evil laden verses to get rid of people like me who critique Islam. This sort of senseless killing is already happening all around the world. Are you joining that bandwagon?

There is no way you can get rid of the natural % of evil prone Muslims and their interpretation of the Quran as long as the thousands of evil laden are in the Quran.

The solution is to get rid of the thousands of evil laden elements in the Quran by whatever means so that the inevitable existence of evil prone Muslims will not be exposed to them. This move will eliminate any possibility of evil prone Muslims finding any opportunity from the Quran [Allah's words] to justify their evil deeds just like in Buddhism, Jainism and other religions that do not contain leading evil laden verses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-06-2017, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here are 2 views Muslims seem to have about Anjem Choudary


The American Muslim (TAM)

Why Anjem Choudary should not have been sent to prison

With that said no person has the ability to change/convert Anjem Choudary or anyone else. That has to come from within. The most powerful shaytan we each have to defeat, is our self. We have the responsibility to always evaluate our proposed actions and through questioning and analyzing learn if our proposed actions are good or evil. No human can justify their evil actions by saying they misunderstood or were misled. We all will be judged by the choices we make. We had best be certain that we have evaluated our choices through all available sources.
I have heard Anjem Choudary views and he was [is?] a lawyer by profession. He argued his case very well with verses from the Quran and Ahadith. In many discussions he left the moderates Muslims with no other words to say.

Quote:
We all will be judged by the choices we make.
This is one of my main point.
"judged by the choices we make" by who??
Surely you know only Allah can do that, not you, me or any other humans.
But there is no way Allah will appear on Earth to judge and make any final decision till Judgment Day.

Now according to 14:48 Judgment Day will not appear till perhaps another million Earth years when "the Earth will change to other than Earth"
14:48 Judgment Day Has Not Happened Yet?

In the above case the natural % of evil prone Muslims will continue to commit evils and violence based on verses from the Quran to please Allah, until Allah appear or when Judgment Day happens one million years' time.

As such the only proper path is this;

1. We cannot get rid of the evil prone humans [20%] immediately because it is embedded in the human DNA.
2. Thus the only solution is to get rid or do something with the 3,400++ evil laden verses in the Quran so that the natural evil prone Muslims will not have any opportunity to justify any evil deeds from the Quran to bring it to par with Buddhism, Jainism and other religions that do not has leading evil laden verses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2017, 02:01 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Yes, me, you and the jihadi (English style) cannot decide on Allah's behalf?

But the fact is this two main variables exists regardless of what any one thinks and interpret;

1. 20% of all humans [so 20% of Muslims] has an active evil tendencies.
2. There are 3,400++ evil laden elements of various degrees in the Quran.
These exist only in your mind. Reality is that:

1. All humans have potential to do both good and evil acts.
2. There are no evil laden elements but only justice laden elements in the Qur'aan that you mistakenly regard evil laden elements.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2017, 03:30 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have proven by your own interpretations that you are wrong in your interpretation.
Re 51:56 [with additions and changes] you are the only one with a different view from the rest of Muslims and non-Muslims I have read off.
Show me one views that is the same as your 51:56 [with additions and changes].
On the other hand, my views of 51:56 is the same with every one's else.
There are other interpretation e.g. 49:14 where you are one against every one else.
This prove your interpretation of the Quran is not credible and is it you who are interpreting the major issues of the Quran in ignorance.
You are not thinking here but joining the rat race. I don't want to join the rat race because even if I win I would still be only a rat.

When the whole Qur'aan is understood properly, worshiping is never the only purpose for which humans were created. The only purpose for which humans were created and placed on earth was as Khalifah (2:30) of Allah on earth. Anyone who ignores this fact, ignores the Qur'aan. 51:56 must be read in conjunction with 51:51. No other god (such as an idol) should be set up for worship except Allah. Humans and jinn were never created to worship other gods (such as idols).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore your claim that I am interpreting the Quran in ignorance is wrong.
You are wrong in the way you misinterpret the Qur'aan. Jihadists (English style) do the same to reach their conclusion. Both of you take the verses out of context to reach your faulty conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is really a screwed-up kind of thinking.
Your thinking and the thinking of the jihadists who take the verses out of context is definitely screwed up thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If I believe and agree that what Hitler did was complying 100% with Main Kemf, what is wrong with that.
You are agreeing with Hitler. LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I am stating is the jihadists and other evil prone Muslims are comply with a part % with the Quran.
You are stating this in ignorance of the knowledge about the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are evil laden verses in the Quran.
None. They are all justice laden verses in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The evil prone has been quoting from the Quran to justify their evil deeds.
Only an ignorant about the Qur'aan will not check with the Qur'aan properly to see if they are correct. If you check with the Qur'aan properly, you will find that the evil doers are taking the verses out of context just as you have been doing to qualify their actions with the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If I were to claim the evil prone Muslims do not comply with the Quran, then I will be cheating my self intellectually.
Exactly my point; you ARE cheating yourself intellectually by agreeing with the view of evil doers.

Below is a classic example of how you cheat yourself intellectually just as the evil doers do with the verses of the Qur’aan.

I had stated: “There is only one solution:

“Get rid of ignorance about the Qur'aan from the minds of jihadists and people like you. That way the jihadists will learn not to kill peaceful people and you will learn not to blame the peaceful Muslims.”

You cheated yourself intellectually by deliberately ignoring most of my statement and instead breaking it down to the following out of context:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Get rid of ... people like you.

This is very personal, evil and violent. Is this the intention of you as a Muslim inspired the Quran?
Everyone can now see how you have taken out some words out of my statement to create a totally wrong meanings of my statement. This is how not only you do but the evil doers do with the verses of the Qur’aan to qualifying their evil works. It is blatant cheating and lying to mislead people about the Qur'aan and peaceful Muslims. You have now been exposed here, Continuum.

You agree with jihadists (English) because you too do the same with actual statements made by peaceful Muslims in order to blame them, and take the verses of the Qur’aan out of context to cheat yourself intellectually and mislead others.

After this fraud, how can anyone see you as presenting here any credible view? Aren’t you ashamed of doing such cheating?

I now repeat what I had stated before so that there is no doubt left as to what I had stated previously as a solution to the problem of ignorance about the Qur’aan:

“There is only one solution:

“Get rid of ignorance about the Qur'aan from the minds of jihadists and people like you. That way the jihadists will learn not to kill peaceful people and you will learn not to blame the peaceful Muslims.”


I am repeating it to stop you cheating again and misleading the posters in this forum.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2017, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are not thinking here but joining the rat race. I don't want to join the rat race because even if I win I would still be only a rat.

When the whole Qur'aan is understood properly, worshiping is never the only purpose for which humans were created. The only purpose for which humans were created and placed on earth was as Khalifah (2:30) of Allah on earth. Anyone who ignores this fact, ignores the Qur'aan. 51:56 must be read in conjunction with 51:51. No other god (such as an idol) should be set up for worship except Allah. Humans and jinn were never created to worship other gods (such as idols).
I will not go into the details of the arguments.
One point to note is you are the only Muslim who has such a view in contrast to all other Muslims I have read of regarding this view.

Quote:
You are wrong in the way you misinterpret the Qur'aan. Jihadists (English style) do the same to reach their conclusion. Both of you take the verses out of context to reach your faulty conclusion.
Your thinking and the thinking of the jihadists who take the verses out of context is definitely screwed up thinking.
What I am doing is with reference to the Quran.
The critical question is will Allah punish them for the deeds they have done?
The answer is no because their deeds comply with Allah's intention.

Quote:
You are agreeing with Hitler. LOL!
You still do not get the point on this matter.
I agree what Hitler did was in compliance with his own Main Kempf. I did not agree with Hitler and his views in the main kempf.

Quote:
You are stating this in ignorance of the knowledge about the Qur'aan.
None. They are all justice laden verses in the Qur'aan.
I don't agree with what you said here.
But this is subject to be discussed in detail.

Quote:
Only an ignorant about the Qur'aan will not check with the Qur'aan properly to see if they are correct. If you check with the Qur'aan properly, you will find that the evil doers are taking the verses out of context just as you have been doing to qualify their actions with the Qur'aan.

Exactly my point; you ARE cheating yourself intellectually by agreeing with the view of evil doers.
Let state again. I do not agree in the sense of condoning what the evil doers has done.
I agree, the evil doers are complying with what is in the Quran.

Quote:
Below is a classic example of how you cheat yourself intellectually just as the evil doers do with the verses of the Qur’aan.

I had stated: “There is only one solution:

“Get rid of ignorance about the Qur'aan from the minds of jihadists and people like you. That way the jihadists will learn not to kill peaceful people and you will learn not to blame the peaceful Muslims.”

You cheated yourself intellectually by deliberately ignoring most of my statement and instead breaking it down to the following out of context:

Everyone can now see how you have taken out some words out of my statement to create a totally wrong meanings of my statement. This is how not only you do but the evil doers do with the verses of the Qur’aan to qualifying their evil works. It is blatant cheating and lying to mislead people about the Qur'aan and peaceful Muslims. You have now been exposed here, Continuum.
After this fraud, how can anyone see you as presenting here any credible view? Aren’t you ashamed of doing such cheating?

I now repeat what I had stated before so that there is no doubt left as to what I had stated previously as a solution to the problem of ignorance about the Qur’aan:

“There is only one solution:

“Get rid of ignorance about the Qur'aan from the minds of jihadists and people like you. That way the jihadists will learn not to kill peaceful people and you will learn not to blame the peaceful Muslims.”


I am repeating it to stop you cheating again and misleading the posters in this forum.
I agree that was hasty and it is not "cheating" as it could be interpret that way in haste.
Whatever is said is not deleted and it open for discussion and correction.
You don't realize you are practicing hasty generalization here. Whatever the accusation, it has to be done on a case by case basis and to be argued on.

Quote:
You agree with jihadists (English) because you too do the same with actual statements made by peaceful Muslims in order to blame them, and take the verses of the Qur’aan out of context to cheat yourself intellectually and mislead others.
As I said that was hasty in that specific case.
As for Quran, show me similar case[s] where I was hasty in judgment. With the Quran I have always try to be as mindful as possible 99.9% of the time. Given that I am human, I am not perfect in 100% on all cases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2017, 04:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree, the evil doers are complying with what is in the Quran.
I disagree. The evil doers are not complying with what is in the Qur'aan.

I comply with what is in the Qur'aan; do good and forbid evil.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2017, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have heard Anjem Choudary views and he was [is?] a lawyer by profession. He argued his case very well with verses from the Quran and Ahadith. In many discussions he left the moderates Muslims with no other words to say.


This is one of my main point.
"judged by the choices we make" by who??
Surely you know only Allah can do that, not you, me or any other humans.
But there is no way Allah will appear on Earth to judge and make any final decision till Judgment Day.

Now according to 14:48 Judgment Day will not appear till perhaps another million Earth years when "the Earth will change to other than Earth"
14:48 Judgment Day Has Not Happened Yet?

In the above case the natural % of evil prone Muslims will continue to commit evils and violence based on verses from the Quran to please Allah, until Allah appear or when Judgment Day happens one million years' time.

As such the only proper path is this;

1. We cannot get rid of the evil prone humans [20%] immediately because it is embedded in the human DNA.
2. Thus the only solution is to get rid or do something with the 3,400++ evil laden verses in the Quran so that the natural evil prone Muslims will not have any opportunity to justify any evil deeds from the Quran to bring it to par with Buddhism, Jainism and other religions that do not has leading evil laden verses.
If one is actually performing Islam or even understands what Islam is they will not view those verses as being "Evil Laden" and will not use them as an excuse to do evil.

One of the primary parts of performing Islam is to not be the aggressor.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2017, 11:09 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I will not go into the details of the arguments.
One point to note is you are the only Muslim who has such a view in contrast to all other Muslims I have read of regarding this view.
I am not answerable to what others do or understand. I am answerable only to what I do through my understanding.

Even if others do not view the verse 51:56 the same way as I view, it makes absolutely no difference to anyone as long as none of us worship idols and worship Allah only. This is where we are all on one platform.

In fact, when I see that other Muslims are doing more than just worshiping Allah in their lives, they kind of prove me right that purpose of Allah creating humans was not that all humans will keep worshiping Allah and do nothing else. This is a clear proof that keep worshiping Allah was never the only purpose of human creation. The verse 2:30 gives the overall purpose of human creation to be placed on earth as Khalifah of Allah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2017, 11:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I am doing is with reference to the Quran.
The critical question is will Allah punish them for the deeds they have done?
The answer is no because their deeds comply with Allah's intention.
You are completely wrong there. (a) You do not know the intention of Allah because to you His words do not matter but only their weightage in your mind. (b) Every word of Allah matters. They do not pay attention to ALL the words of Allah. Their every evil action is opposed by Allah in the Qur'aan. They ignore those words and so do you in failing to understand the Qur'aan. This is done by (a) taking the verses out of their context and (b) ignoring what is said in the other verses. The result is failure to understand the Qur'aan properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree with what you said here.
But this is subject to be discussed in detail.
You don't agree because you fail to understand the justice-laden verses in the Qur'aan. The matter has been discussed but not understood by you in full.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Let state again. I do not agree in the sense of condoning what the evil doers has done.
I agree, the evil doers are complying with what is in the Quran.
Who do you agree with when you say that the evil doers are complying with what is in the Qur'aan; with yourself or with the evil doers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree that was hasty and it is not "cheating" as it could be interpret that way in haste.
Whatever is said is not deleted and it open for discussion and correction.
You don't realize you are practicing hasty generalization here. Whatever the accusation, it has to be done on a case by case basis and to be argued on.
Continuum, all I have done is exposed your manipulation of what I had stated in over 40 words by you chopping it down to only 6 words. You did it to create the impression that that's what I had said. The evil element was not in my statement but in your corrupted statement attributed to me. The evil doers do exactly the same with the justice-laden verses as you have done with my statement. Such evils elements are not in the Qur'aan but are created by people. You have even proved here how it is done in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I said that was hasty in that specific case.
As for Quran, show me similar case[s] where I was hasty in judgment.
The method used by the evil doers with the verses of the Qur'aan is the same as the method used by you with my statement. I have no doubt now that you are aware of the method but not honest enough to accept their dishonesty. You blame the text but not the dishonest and evil doing people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
With the Quran I have always try to be as mindful as possible 99.9% of the time. Given that I am human, I am not perfect in 100% on all cases.
This is why we, honest Muslims, are here to point out where you go wrong in discarding some of the text of the Qur'aan to reach your preconceived "evil elements".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2017, 08:55 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 660,944 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

Continuum, all I have done is exposed your manipulation of what I had stated in over 40 words by you chopping it down to only 6 words. You did it to create the impression that that's what I had said. The evil element was not in my statement but in your corrupted statement attributed to me. The evil doers do exactly the same with the justice-laden verses as you have done with my statement. Such evils elements are not in the Qur'aan but are created by people. You have even proved here how it is done in practice.

.
Thread even be useful, we know a Muslim opinion left-Islam, a psychologist named Wafa Sultan
He explains the elements of evil in the Koran
These are some of the words of those personal
In a meeting with one of the Muslim scholars
----------------
when i examined the koran ,the hadithes and the Islamic books under my microscope
that it is impossible -impossible for any human being to read biography of mohammed and believe in it and yet emerge psychologically and mentally person
-----------------
This Wafa Sultan words
A researcher in Islam
At the meeting, to prove her words, but Sheikh Aeetmkn of reply
It is wonderful to meet and translator into English started
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top