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Old 01-08-2017, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If one is actually performing Islam or even understands what Islam is they will not view those verses as being "Evil Laden" and will not use them as an excuse to do evil.

One of the primary parts of performing Islam is to not be the aggressor.
The only words from Allah is in the Quran-only and no where else.
What is understanding what is Islam, is understanding 100% 'what is Islam' from the Quran Only.

To be a true and good Muslim, a Muslim must comply 100% with the Quran, if not to the best of one's ability.

When an evil prone Muslim carry an act which is in accordance to the Quran, s/he do not view it as evil at all, but view the act as a righteous deed that will please Allah and ensure his/her passage to Paradise.

You have to take into consideration the two separate box, i.e.

1. The humanity box [all human]
2. The Islamic box [Quran and Muslim only].

A Muslim within the Islamic-box by default must never and probably will never see any verse in the Quran as 'evil' laden.

A human being looking from the humanity box can see some of the verses within the Islamic box as 'evil'.

Quote:
Some good examples are within the lovers-box and the parent-child-box.
In most cases one lover will be very blind and never admit the acts [evil to others] of their lover as evil. The lover will claim his loved-one is innocent despite the overwhelming evidence. This is a common scene in the courts.
Similarly, SOME mothers or fathers will refused to admit their son or daughter is guilty of a crime despite proven beyond reasonable doubt. Again this is a common scene in court and even with the worst cases of evils.
Point is the emotional and psychological elements between a believer and the faith-driven-biasness towards his/her religious doctrines is much more stronger than between lovers and parent-child bondage.

Therefore it is very likely all Muslims will ever view anything in their Quran as evil.
What is happening is Most believers do not comply with certain verses in the Quran that can result in acts that will cause evils to others.
However the evil prone Muslims [SOME %] will naturally be inclined to certain acts in the belief that they are pleasing Allah, but unfortunately from the humanity-box they are judged to be evil.

So my point is;
Muslims must step outside their Islamic-box and wear the shoes of the humanity-box to recognize that SOME verses in the Quran has potential evil laden elements even though they don't act on such elements.
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am not answerable to what others do or understand. I am answerable only to what I do through my understanding.

Even if others do not view the verse 51:56 the same way as I view, it makes absolutely no difference to anyone as long as none of us worship idols and worship Allah only. This is where we are all on one platform.

In fact, when I see that other Muslims are doing more than just worshiping Allah in their lives, they kind of prove me right that purpose of Allah creating humans was not that all humans will keep worshiping Allah and do nothing else. This is a clear proof that keep worshiping Allah was never the only purpose of human creation. The verse 2:30 gives the overall purpose of human creation to be placed on earth as Khalifah of Allah.
What is missed out here is the term 'ya'budu'.
To use the term 'worshiping' in English can be very misleading.

When a Muslim 'ya'budu' Allah, the Muslim must comply 100% with what is the Quran.
What is 'Khalifahtan' in 2:30 is not 100% of the Quran, maybe 5%.
Therefore ya'budu Allah (alone) [51:56] is the main purpose of humankind.
Since ya'budu is 100% Islam, it will cover 'Khalifahtan' [partial] whatever it is.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only words from Allah is in the Quran-only and no where else.
What is understanding what is Islam, is understanding 100% 'what is Islam' from the Quran Only.

To be a true and good Muslim, a Muslim must comply 100% with the Quran, if not to the best of one's ability.

When an evil prone Muslim carry an act which is in accordance to the Quran, s/he do not view it as evil at all, but view the act as a righteous deed that will please Allah and ensure his/her passage to Paradise.

You have to take into consideration the two separate box, i.e.

1. The humanity box [all human]
2. The Islamic box [Quran and Muslim only].

A Muslim within the Islamic-box by default must never and probably will never see any verse in the Quran as 'evil' laden.

A human being looking from the humanity box can see some of the verses within the Islamic box as 'evil'.



Point is the emotional and psychological elements between a believer and the faith-driven-biasness towards his/her religious doctrines is much more stronger than between lovers and parent-child bondage.

Therefore it is very likely all Muslims will ever view anything in their Quran as evil.
What is happening is Most believers do not comply with certain verses in the Quran that can result in acts that will cause evils to others.
However the evil prone Muslims [SOME %] will naturally be inclined to certain acts in the belief that they are pleasing Allah, but unfortunately from the humanity-box they are judged to be evil.

So my point is;
Muslims must step outside their Islamic-box and wear the shoes of the humanity-box to recognize that SOME verses in the Quran has potential evil laden elements even though they don't act on such elements.
The methodology of Islam is not found in the Qur'an. To understand the Qur'an one needs to first understand Islam. When one knows what Islam is then one can understand how the Qur'an relates to Islam.

It is possible for a person to know the Qur'an and follow it yet never be a Muslim. There are non-Muslim religions that do use the Qur'an as a Sacred Text Druze, Yazidi, Sikh, Baha'i and possibly others, they know the Qur'an but do not perform Islam.

If a person finds justification in the Qur'an to do evil, they are not performing Islam.

An analogy would be learning to drive a car. One can know all the mechanical aspects of driving, but without knowing the legal and safety aspects they would be a hazard on the road.

The typical Muslim is going to learn Islam prior to studying the Qur'an. I doubt it is possible for one to understand the Qur'an as a Muslim understands it without first understanding Islam.

Another interesting thing I find is the respect some non-Muslims have of the Qur'an. Some examples:

Quote:
Learning About The Quran ... From A Catholic Archbishop : Parallels : NPR

Emphasis On Expertise, No Matter Where It Originates

Some Islamist leaders may object to the idea of a Catholic priest teaching Muslims about Islam, but Fitzgerald has impressed even Muslim scholars with his grasp of their religion.

"What is important here is knowledge," says Zeki Saritoprak, who directs the Islamic Studies program at John Carroll University, one of many Jesuit institutions in the United States that offer instruction in Islam, almost always with Muslim scholars.

Saritoprak, who earned a doctorate in Islamic theology at a divinity school in his native Turkey, says he has known Fitzgerald for more than a decade and sees no problem with his teaching.

"A well-informed Christian can teach Islam better than an ill-informed Muslim," Saritoprak says. "I would rather have Muslims learning about Islam from a Christian like Archbishop Fitzgerald than from a propagandist for an organization like ISIS," referring to the self-proclaimed Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, which has carried out horrific acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

Quote:
Goethe, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p. 526.
"The Koran admittedly occupies an important position among the great religious books of the world. Though the youngest of the epoch-making works belonging to this class of literature, it yields to hardly any in the wonderful effect which it has produced on large masses of men. It has created an all but new phase of human thought and a fresh type of character. It first transformed a number of heterogeneous desert tribes of the Arabian peninsula into a nation of heroes, and then proceeded to create the vast politico-religious organizations of the Muhammadan world which are one of the great forces with which Europe and the East have to reckon today."

G. Margoliouth, Introduction to J.M. Rodwell's, THE KORAN, New York: Everyman's Library, 1977, p. vii.

"A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader - distant as to time, and still more so as a mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production of the human mind indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind."
Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, pp. 526-527.
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"

Maurice Bucaille, THE BIBLE, THE QUR'AN AND SCIENCE, 1978, p. 125.
"Here, therefore, its merits as a literary production should perhaps not be measured by some preconceived maxims of subjective and aesthetic taste, but by the effects which it produced in Muhammad's contemporaries and fellow countrymen. If it spoke so powerfully and convincingly to the hearts of his hearers as to weld hitherto centrifugal and antagonistic elements into one compact and well-organized body, animated by ideas far beyond those which had until now ruled the Arabian mind, then its eloquence was perfect, simply because it created a civilized nation out of savage tribes, and shot a fresh woof into the old warp of history."

Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p.528.
"In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pains to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which - apart from the message itself - constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind... This very characteristic feature - 'that inimitable symphony,' as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, 'the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy' - has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and flat indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original."

Arthur J. Arberry, THE KORAN INTERPRETED, London: Oxford University Press, 1964, p. x.
"A totally objective examination of it [the Qur'an] in the light of modern knowledge, leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has been already noted on repeated occasions. It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad's time to have been the author of such statements on account of the state of knowledge in his day. Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur'anic Revelation its unique place, and forces the impartial scientist to admit his inability to provide an explanation which calls solely upon materialistic reasoning."
Maurice Bucaille, THE QUR'AN AND MODERN SCIENCE, 1981, p. 18.

What non-Muslim scholars say about the Quran? - GainPeace
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:46 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is missed out here is the term 'ya'budu'.
To use the term 'worshiping' in English can be very misleading.
No. I did not miss out anything. I know exactly in what sense the term ya'budu is used here and throughout the Qur'aan.

This term is used in the Qur'aan wherever taking other gods and lords instead of the God and the Lord for worship in mentioned. Therefore, it is specifically worshiping rather than wider serving. You can only worship idols but you can't obey idols or lords who can't create.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When a Muslim 'ya'budu' Allah, the Muslim must comply 100% with what is the Quran.
When a non-Muslims ya'budu other lords and gods, they are not doing all that a Muslim does by complying with the Qur'aan but only a minute part of it called worshiping. It is that worshiping that is mentioned in several verses of the Qur'aan when mentioning it in conjunction with mention of other gods and lords.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is 'Khalifahtan' in 2:30 is not 100% of the Quran, maybe 5%.
A Khalifah does more than worshiping like any other living creature on earth. Khalifah is Allah's vicegerent on earth as ruler over all living earthly creatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Therefore ya'budu Allah (alone) [51:56] is the main purpose of humankind.
Worshiping on its own does not make one a Khalifah. Khalifah does more than that. That's why human is Khalifah of Allah on earth. This Khalifah can do a lot more than other creature ya'budu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since ya'budu is 100% Islam, it will cover 'Khalifahtan' [partial] whatever it is.
How do you know that when you do not even know what it is?

To think that "ya'budu" makes the jinn and humans Khalifah of Allah is thinking in ignorance. Jinn existed even before Allah said to the angels that He is going to place Khalifah on earth in reference to humans. Angels knew that jinn do not have blood in them but only earthly creatures have blood in them. As "ya'budu" of jinn did not make them Khalifah of Allah, becoming Khalifah of Allah is more than through "ya'budu". It also includes ruling on earth with the delegated power from Allah and ability given by Him to humans for this purpose.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:53 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have to take into consideration the two separate box, i.e.

1. The humanity box [all human]
2. The Islamic box [Quran and Muslim only].
This remark was born in an ignorant box; Muslims are humans too.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:07 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only words from Allah is in the Quran-only and no where else.
When the Qur'aan was being revealed, Allah's word was already there in books read by people who were aware of what is revelation. The Qur'aan is the word of Allah that verifies the word of Allah revealed before the Qur'aan.

[2.285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

[10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:18 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So my point is;
Muslims must step outside their Islamic-box and wear the shoes of the humanity-box to recognize that SOME verses in the Quran has potential evil laden elements even though they don't act on such elements.
My point is:

You must step outside of your ignorant-about-the-Qur'aan box and wear the shoes of this Muslim human's box to recognize that verses in the Qur'aan are full of justice laden elements because you can't see such elements from your box.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:13 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 768,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
My point is:

You must step outside of your ignorant-about-the-Qur'aan box and wear the shoes of this Muslim human's box to recognize that verses in the Qur'aan are full of justice laden elements because you can't see such elements from your box.
Brother...you and Woodrow have an immense amount of patience. I congratulate you on your virtue of sabr. May Allah (swt) reward you.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
My point is:

You must step outside of your ignorant-about-the-Qur'aan box and wear the shoes of this Muslim human's box to recognize that verses in the Qur'aan are full of justice laden elements because you can't see such elements from your box.
Note 'Muslim human's box,' "Muslim-human's-box" or Quran-Box are the same, i.e. still an Islamic-box.

Hope you understand the Silo Effect or Inside-the-box or Outside-the-box thinking.
Note a pictorial analogy [Woodrow is familiar with such pic I posted before]


The Islamic-box thinking mean you must think within the Islamic Silo.
Once inside the Islamic Silo [Islamic box] you cannot get out of it, otherwise your faith will be compromised.

I am thinking from the humanity's box which is external to the Islamic box and other specific boxes.
As you will note I have put a lot of effort in breaking into the Islamic-box to understand the principles and workings of the Islamic-box.
I have no "faith" at stake thus can get out of the Islamic box and deliberate on the Islamic box from outside independently and objectively.

On the other hand most Muslims are stucked inside the Islamic-box or Quran-box and are unable to get out to secure their faith. This is why most Muslims are not in touch with the reality of humanity especially when they are faced with an existential dilemma.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-09-2017 at 07:48 PM..
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Brother...you and Woodrow have an immense amount of patience. I congratulate you on your virtue of sabr. May Allah (swt) reward you.
This show your progress as a Muslim is very low.

Quote:
46:19. And for ALL [jinn & mankind] there will be ranks from what they do, that He may pay [recompense, repay, compensate] them [jinn & mankind] for their deeds! and they will not be wronged [fairly judged].
Note 46:19 state Muslims will be rewarded according to their ranks [and grades] accordingly.

I don't think Woodrow and Khalif were born with good patience, rather I believe they have cultivated this quality through practice.

You should learn from Woodrow and Khalif on how to control of your nafs [impulses]. Discussing with critiques is one good way to test and develop one's patience.
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