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Old 01-24-2017, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
What the Prophet (saw) said was a figure of speech. The meaning and wisdom is that it does not befit a Muslim to eat lavishly to the point of being glutinous...while it was the trait of non-believing pagans to do just that, while their neighbor or community starved.

It's like saying, "I saw Maccabee 2A eat a ton of food!"... did I mean it literally? Obviously not.
That's all well and good if that was the context. Can you quote it in context?
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Personally, I don't believe the messenger Muhammad said that. I believe it is a fabricated hadith. His duty was only to deliver the message (3:20, 13:40, 16:35, 64:12). And that message is the Qur'aan.
So how do you know which Hadith is correct?
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:47 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A View Post
So how do you know which Hadith is correct?
The majority of scholarship regarding hadeeth points to what's called isnads, or chains of transmission. Since these saying and doings of the Prophet (saw) were witness accounts, scholars evaluate who said it (was the person trustworthy? Honest? Coherent? Etc...) and who repeated it before it was written down. For instance the original statement may have come from Aisha (ra), but was narrated by others and this may have spanned a few generations. You need to make sure that everyone who passed the hadeeth along was fit to and that there were no blacks holes so to speak (for instance the hadeeth disappeared for several generations then someone 200 years later says it).
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A View Post
That's all well and good if that was the context. Can you quote it in context?
Here's the whole hadeeth: Narrated Abu Hurairah: A man used to eat much, but when he embraced Islam, he started eating less. That was mentioned to the Prophet (ﷺ) who then said, “A believer eats in one intestine and a disbeliever eats in seven intestines.

Ibn Hajar, Ibn Al-Jaziri and Imam Nawawi (Classical Scholars from the Medievel Period) all commented on this hadeeth as metaphorical. Again the number "7" meant "a lot" in 7th century Arabia.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Personally, I don't believe the messenger Muhammad said that. I believe it is a fabricated hadith. His duty was only to deliver the message (3:20, 13:40, 16:35, 64:12). And that message is the Qur'aan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A View Post
So how do you know which Hadith is correct?
There are ahadith and there is Al-Hadith. Al-Hadith is Hadith of Allah and ahadith (plural of hadith) are stories, news and sayings of people.

For my Deen (Islam), I am interested in Al-Hadith; the Hadith (Saying) of Allah. The Qur'aan is the Hadith of Allah (39:23). Islam was perfected by the Sayings of Allah (Qur'aan 5:3).

[3.20] But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.

Messenger's duty was only to deliver the Message. He was not to add anything from himself in the Message. Anything Muhammad had said outside the capacity of Messenger was not from Allah but from himself as a man only rather than it was from a messenger.

Now to your question, The Hadith of Allah is correct. We are warned in the Qur'aan about believing any other hadith than the Hadith of Allah.

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


This is the fundamental of Islam. Anything else attributed to Muhammad (as a man) could be true or could be fabricated. These sayings of Muhammad were not written down immediately but 200 years and several generations later. The authenticity of them word by word is highly unlikely to be original despite the "science of hadith". It is often said that the narrators in the chain (isnad) were reliable people. How do we know that the last person who said the one before him was reliable was himself reliable?

Generally, no hadith of a man could be accepted within the Deen if:

1. When it contains such a silly statement which cannot be attributed to the prophet;
2. When it is opposed to expeerience;
3. When it is opposed to well established traditions;
4. When it is opposed to fact;
5. Which is opposed to the Qur'aan;
6. Which is opposed to reason; and
7. Which contains indecent language.

The above are the principles that have been evolved to assess the merit of the traditions.

In terms of the final judgment on the Day of Judgment, It won't be the non-compliance with these ahadith that the messenger won't be happy about but the non-compliance with the Hasith of Allah (The Qur'aan).

[25.30] And the messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.

It is so because it is Allah's guidance in His Hadith that we are to follow if we are not to go astray or be unhappy. When Adam was expelled from the garden for non-compliance with Allah's Guidance (not to go near a certain tree), this is what Allah had said:

[20.123] ... Get forth you two therefrom, all, one of you enemy to another. So there will surely come to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor be unhappy;

[20.124] And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

[20.125] He shall say: My Lord! why hast Thou raised me blind and I was a seeing one indeed?

[20.126] He will say: Even so, Our verses came to you but you forgot them; even thus shall you be forgotten this day.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:22 AM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are ahadith and there is Al-Hadith. Al-Hadith is Hadith of Allah and ahadith (plural of hadith) are stories, news and sayings of people.

For my Deen (Islam), I am interested in Al-Hadith; the Hadith (Saying) of Allah. The Qur'aan is the Hadith of Allah (39:23). Islam was perfected by the Sayings of Allah (Qur'aan 5:3).

[3.20] But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.

Messenger's duty was only to deliver the Message. He was not to add anything from himself in the Message. Anything Muhammad had said outside the capacity of Messenger was not from Allah but from himself as a man only rather than it was from a messenger.

Now to your question, The Hadith of Allah is correct. We are warned in the Qur'aan about believing any other hadith than the Hadith of Allah.

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


This is the fundamental of Islam. Anything else attributed to Muhammad (as a man) could be true or could be fabricated. These sayings of Muhammad were not written down immediately but 200 years and several generations later. The authenticity of them word by word is highly unlikely to be original despite the "science of hadith". It is often said that the narrators in the chain (isnad) were reliable people. How do we know that the last person who said the one before him was reliable was himself reliable?

Generally, no hadith of a man could be accepted within the Deen if:

1. When it contains such a silly statement which cannot be attributed to the prophet;
2. When it is opposed to expeerience;
3. When it is opposed to well established traditions;
4. When it is opposed to fact;
5. Which is opposed to the Qur'aan;
6. Which is opposed to reason; and
7. Which contains indecent language.

The above are the principles that have been evolved to assess the merit of the traditions.

In terms of the final judgment on the Day of Judgment, It won't be the non-compliance with these ahadith that the messenger won't be happy about but the non-compliance with the Hasith of Allah (The Qur'aan).

[25.30] And the messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.

It is so because it is Allah's guidance in His Hadith that we are to follow if we are not to go astray or be unhappy. When Adam was expelled from the garden for non-compliance with Allah's Guidance (not to go near a certain tree), this is what Allah had said:

[20.123] ... Get forth you two therefrom, all, one of you enemy to another. So there will surely come to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor be unhappy;

[20.124] And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

[20.125] He shall say: My Lord! why hast Thou raised me blind and I was a seeing one indeed?

[20.126] He will say: Even so, Our verses came to you but you forgot them; even thus shall you be forgotten this day.
Imam Muslim and Imam Bukhari did an excellent job at addressing your points in their two hadeeth collections. There's very dew daeef hadeeth in their collections and frankly without them it would be almost impossible for us to emulate the Prophet (saw)...how we know how to eat, how to pray, how to make wudu, how to fast, etc... Comes from hadeeth.
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:11 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are ahadith and there is Al-Hadith. Al-Hadith is Hadith of Allah and ahadith (plural of hadith) are stories, news and sayings of people.

For my Deen (Islam), I am interested in Al-Hadith; the Hadith (Saying) of Allah. The Qur'aan is the Hadith of Allah (39:23). Islam was perfected by the Sayings of Allah (Qur'aan 5:3).

[3.20] But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.

Messenger's duty was only to deliver the Message. He was not to add anything from himself in the Message. Anything Muhammad had said outside the capacity of Messenger was not from Allah but from himself as a man only rather than it was from a messenger.

Now to your question, The Hadith of Allah is correct. We are warned in the Qur'aan about believing any other hadith than the Hadith of Allah.

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


This is the fundamental of Islam. Anything else attributed to Muhammad (as a man) could be true or could be fabricated. These sayings of Muhammad were not written down immediately but 200 years and several generations later. The authenticity of them word by word is highly unlikely to be original despite the "science of hadith". It is often said that the narrators in the chain (isnad) were reliable people. How do we know that the last person who said the one before him was reliable was himself reliable?

Generally, no hadith of a man could be accepted within the Deen if:

1. When it contains such a silly statement which cannot be attributed to the prophet;
2. When it is opposed to experience;
3. When it is opposed to well established traditions;
4. When it is opposed to fact;
5. Which is opposed to the Qur'aan;
6. Which is opposed to reason; and
7. Which contains indecent language.

The above are the principles that have been evolved to assess the merit of the traditions.

In terms of the final judgment on the Day of Judgment, It won't be the non-compliance with these ahadith that the messenger won't be happy about but the non-compliance with the Hasith of Allah (The Qur'aan).

[25.30] And the messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.

It is so because it is Allah's guidance in His Hadith that we are to follow if we are not to go astray or be unhappy. When Adam was expelled from the garden for non-compliance with Allah's Guidance (not to go near a certain tree), this is what Allah had said:

[20.123] ... Get forth you two therefrom, all, one of you enemy to another. So there will surely come to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor be unhappy;

[20.124] And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.

[20.125] He shall say: My Lord! why hast Thou raised me blind and I was a seeing one indeed?

[20.126] He will say: Even so, Our verses came to you but you forgot them; even thus shall you be forgotten this day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Imam Muslim and Imam Bukhari did an excellent job at addressing your points in their two hadeeth collections.
They did not address 45:6:

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Instead of not believing any other hadith, they decided to write about other ahadith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
There's very dew daeef hadeeth in their collections and frankly without them it would be almost impossible for us to emulate the Prophet (saw)...how we know how to eat, how to pray, how to make wudu, how to fast, etc... Comes from hadeeth.
We cannot emulate the Prophet.

1. We cannot prophesize anything. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
2. We can't live our life in Mecca and Madina. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
3. We can't dress everywhere in the world as he dressed in Arabia.
4. We can't marry the number of wives as he married. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
5. He prayed more than we do. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
6. We do not eat the same thing on daily basis as he ate. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
7. How to eat? It may help your health but how you eat won't help you get into Paradise.
8. How to pray is an established way even before any hadith book was written.
9. How to do wudu is in the Qur'aan.
10. How to fast is in the Qur'aan.

Frankly, to say that the Qur'aan is not a complete guidance from Allah is saying that the Qur'aan is incomplete.

[17.89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

[18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

[16.89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.

[77:50] Then in what hadith after this (the Qur'an) will they believe?

Ask the clerics, they believe in ahadith and talk about ahadith written long after the Qur'aan but say very little about the Qur'aan. Most of them have gone against the Qur'aan 77:50 and the Qur'aan 45:6.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:22 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,305 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
They did not address 45:6:

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Instead of not believing any other hadith, they decided to write about other ahadith.

We cannot emulate the Prophet.

1. We cannot prophesize anything. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
2. We can't live our life in Mecca and Madina. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
3. We can't dress everywhere in the world as he dressed in Arabia.
4. We can't marry the number of wives as he married. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
5. He prayed more than we do. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
6. We do not eat the same thing on daily basis as he ate. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
7. How to eat? It may help your health but how you eat won't help you get into Paradise.
8. How to pray is an established way even before any hadith book was written.
9. How to do wudu is in the Qur'aan.
10. How to fast is in the Qur'aan.

Frankly, to say that the Qur'aan is not a complete guidance from Allah is saying that the Qur'aan is incomplete.

[17.89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

[18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

[16.89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.

[77:50] Then in what hadith after this (the Qur'an) will they believe?

Ask the clerics, they believe in ahadith and talk about ahadith written long after the Qur'aan but say very little about the Qur'aan. Most of them have gone against the Qur'aan 77:50 and the Qur'aan 45:6.
Whoa...we can't emulate the Prophet (saw)? Does not the Quran command us to follow him? "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messengerís duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner." - (5:92)

If we were to only follow Allah (swt) then all we would need is the Quran....those are the commands of Allah (swt) but Allah (swt) instructs us to obey the messenger as well...meaning what he did and did not. What you're confusing when you say that "we can't emulate the Prophet", is the differences between what is prohibited, what is recommended and what is halal. Everything is halal until there is evidence that it is haraam...so therefore since the Prophet (saw) never said it was forbidden to live outside of Mecca/Medina, then it is possible to live there. He also never said that it is forbidden to take modes of transportation besides camels and horses, therefore we are allowed to take cars.

In regards to acts of worship however, we need examples from him. We need to be instructed...the Quran alone does not show one exactly how to pray or worship in totality, therefore we need the hadeeth to guide us.

Further what's interesting is that you'll accept a hadeeth Qudsi (as classified by none other than Muslim and Bukhari) but won't accept non-Qudsi hadeeth. They are both classified as sahih or not based on the same criteria so to reject one and accept another is strange.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:34 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
They did not address 45:6:

[45.6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Instead of not believing any other hadith, they decided to write about other ahadith.

We cannot emulate the Prophet.

1. We cannot prophesize anything. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
2. We can't live our life in Mecca and Madina. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
3. We can't dress everywhere in the world as he dressed in Arabia.
4. We can't marry the number of wives as he married. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
5. He prayed more than we do. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
6. We do not eat the same thing on daily basis as he ate. Therefore, we can't emulate the Prophet.
7. How to eat? It may help your health but how you eat won't help you get into Paradise.
8. How to pray is an established way even before any hadith book was written.
9. How to do wudu is in the Qur'aan.
10. How to fast is in the Qur'aan.

Frankly, to say that the Qur'aan is not a complete guidance from Allah is saying that the Qur'aan is incomplete.

[17.89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

[18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

[16.89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.

[77:50] Then in what hadith after this (the Qur'an) will they believe?

Ask the clerics, they believe in ahadith and talk about ahadith written long after the Qur'aan but say very little about the Qur'aan. Most of them have gone against the Qur'aan 77:50 and the Qur'aan 45:6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Whoa...we can't emulate the Prophet (saw)? Does not the Quran command us to follow him? "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messengerís duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner." - (5:92)
As I stated in my previous post, we can't emulate the Prophet in everything he did. It is impossible.

As for following him, we can follow him the way he had obeyed Allah's commands that were for all of us too. There are many ways that we can follow him but we still can't emulate him in everything he did.

As for "obey Allah and obey the messenger", it is never meant to be separately but together and in one go. When we obey any command from Allah that is in the Message that is delivered by the messenger, we obey Allah and the messenger in one go. That is what is meant by every verse in the Qur'aan that mentions "obey Allah and obey the Messenger" (5:92, 24:54, 47:33, 64:12) or "obey Allah and the messenger" or "obey Allah and His messenger". It is never obey Allah and obey Muhammad.

When one obeys Allah, s/he obeys the Messenger, and when one obeys the Messenger one obeys Allah.

It is always "obey Messenger" and never "obey Muhammad". Of course Allah knew the name of the Messenger as He did use it in the Qur'aan but never when telling us to obey the "Messenger". There is big difference in obeying Muhammad and obeying the Messenger. Muslims must understand the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
If we were to only follow Allah (swt) then all we would need is the Quran....those are the commands of Allah (swt) but Allah (swt) instructs us to obey the messenger as well...meaning what he did and did not.
No. We obey Allah and the messenger at the same time when we obey any command/guidance in the Message from Allah that is delivered by the Messenger. We can learn from the Messenger as to how he too did obey Allah. That is not "obeying the Messenger" but following the Messenger and his example of how he had obeyed Allah. This is where the Sunnah comes into effect. Sunnah is the "practice" of the Messenger in obeying Allah. Thus the Sunnah is intrinsically linked to the Qur'aan (the Message). It is not something remote from the Message. The Messenger wasn't supposed to deliver one Message from Allah and one from himself. His duty was to deliver only the Message from Allah.

[10.15] And when Our clear ayat are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Qur'an other than this or change it. Say: It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.

Whatever was revealed to him for us was delivered and is in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
What you're confusing when you say that "we can't emulate the Prophet", is the differences between what is prohibited, what is recommended and what is halal.
No. I am not saying that. I am saying that we can't do everything that the Prophet did. In fact, there are some things identified in the Qur'aan that are only for the messenger to do and not for us to do. This is why I say that we can't emulate the Prophet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Everything is halal until there is evidence that it is haraam...so therefore since the Prophet (saw) never said it was forbidden to live outside of Mecca/Medina, then it is possible to live there. He also never said that it is forbidden to take modes of transportation besides camels and horses, therefore we are allowed to take cars.
Once again, the Prophet was not required to say anything other than deliver the Message. The Qur'aan makes it clear.

[3.20] But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
In regards to acts of worship however, we need examples from him. We need to be instructed...the Quran alone does not show one exactly how to pray or worship in totality, therefore we need the hadeeth to guide us.
There were no hadith books for 200 years after the Qur'aan was completed. How did those people pray in the 2nd century? I prayed as a child just as my father prayed. Neither my father nor I had read any hadith book in our lives. We were praying as the Prophet and his companions prayed. It had become an establish way of praying that was passed on from generation to generation. There is no need for hadith books to learn how to pray. We just need to remember Allah. It is the remembrance of Allah that hearts find rest.

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Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Further what's interesting is that you'll accept a hadeeth Qudsi (as classified by none other than Muslim and Bukhari) but won't accept non-Qudsi hadeeth. They are both classified as sahih or not based on the same criteria so to reject one and accept another is strange.
I can't remember saying that I accept hadeeth Qudsi and do not accept non-Qudsi hadeeth. What I am saying is that we must focus on the Message that is from Allah and is delivered by the Messenger before reading any other hadith book. Only the Message (the Qur'aan) is from Allah and not the hadith books.

We pray to Allah (not to the Prophet) to be guided on the Straight Path.

[1.6] Guide us to the Straight Path.

The Straight Path is the Way shown by Allah, and only by Allah. This Way is His Way and not Their Way.

Islam is the Way that is only from Allah. Islam was perfected 200 years before any hadith book was written by any man. There was nothing more to add to it.
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There were no hadith books for 200 years after the Qur'aan was completed. How did those people pray in the 2nd century?
Via chains of transmission. At the time they still had direct witnesses to the Prophet (saw) and then children of witnesses. In order to preserve the Sunnah they began writing these traditions down and compiling books of hadeeth.

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Originally Posted by Khalif
I prayed as a child just as my father prayed. Neither my father nor I had read any hadith book in our lives. We were praying as the Prophet and his companions prayed. It had become an establish way of praying that was passed on from generation to generation. There is no need for hadith books to learn how to pray. We just need to remember Allah. It is the remembrance of Allah that hearts find rest.
Question: Are you sure we would not need hadeeth? What if we disagree? What if I picked up something incorrectly? Can I pray on one leg? Does doing jumping jacks in between rukhooh invalidate my salat? Can I fart in salat?

I know these are funny examples but if we did disagree on any issue in salat, we would only have the hadeeth and sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to rely on as an *objective* source of evidence (remember bring your proof if you are truthful? ). If both of our evidences are only subjective observations of what our parents did, then the person claiming salat is jumping jacks and the person claiming salat is something else are on the same level from an evidence perspective. And this is only salat, not other aspects of worship and life.
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