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Old 01-26-2017, 12:04 PM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Via chains of transmission. At the time they still had direct witnesses to the Prophet (saw) and then children of witnesses. In order to preserve the Sunnah they began writing these traditions down and compiling books of hadeeth.
I don't think anyone wrote any hadith books at the time until Bukhari and Muslim decided to write hadith books 200 years after the Qur'aan was written.

The Sunnah is not something that is written down but something that is established in practice. It is method of practice passed on from generation to generation. It is like memorizing the Qur'aan. Once memorized, and recited on daily basis, you are not going to let it be changed. Just as the Qur'aan is preserved word by word through this method, Sunnah was preserved as it was practiced 5 times a day, every day, and from generation to generation for centuries. Hadith books did not reach everywhere in Islamic world for several centuries but they still prayed the same way, 5 times a day and in the same manner. This wasn't because of any hadith books but because of already established Sunnah (Practice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Question: Are you sure we would not need hadeeth?
Allah had already asked a question expecting your question a long time before anyone wrote any hadith book:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
What if we disagree?
Simple! Refer to the Qur'aan. If the Qur'aan is silent on it then use the same method that you use for the Prophet being silent on any ruling. Why not, when Allah instructs you to do so?

[4.59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

If you disagree, refer it to "Allah and the Messenger". It means refer it to the Message; the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
What if I picked up something incorrectly?
Others will correct you. It's unlikely that everyone else too has picked up something incorrectly at the same time. Established Sunnah can't be changed by one person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Can I pray on one leg?
You can pray standing, sitting, lay flat or even flying. If you have only one leg, do it on one leg if you want or sit down and pray. Why make our Deen more complicated than it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Does doing jumping jacks in between rukhooh invalidate my salat?
Yes, if your mind is in doing jumping jacks than salat. If you do that during the congregation, you will also stop others doing their salat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Can I fart in salat?
You will have no choice but to fart if you are unable to hold it. The point to note is that your concentration or others' concentration must not break during the salat. If it does, you need to stop and begin again with fresh wudu. It can be done if you are on your own but impossible to get out of the congregation. Anyone can begin the salat again. Just use common sense. Islam is not that rigid Deen as some clerics have made it into. Allah (SWT) knows what you can do and what you can't do. He will accept your effort within your ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
I know these are funny examples but if we did disagree on any issue in salat, we would only have the hadeeth and sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to rely on as an *objective* source of evidence (remember bring your proof if you are truthful? ).
The best source of evidence is the word of Allah; the Qur'aan.

[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Well, no wonder they wrote hadith books (because they were in doubt as to what was revealed through the Qur'aan)!

[28.49] Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful.

Perhaps that's why they brought other books (better than the Taurat and the Qur'aan) and claimed them to be better guide than the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
If both of our evidences are only subjective observations of what our parents did, then the person claiming salat is jumping jacks and the person claiming salat is something else are on the same level from an evidence perspective. And this is only salat, not other aspects of worship and life.
Well, loads of hadith books haven't stopped Muslims from disagreeing with each others. So many sects (cursed in the Qur'aan) are result of men writing books long after the Qur'aan. Islam's golden age lasted 2 centuries. It's golden age did not ebb away until they produced hadith books and left the Qur'aan on top shelf to catch dust.

There is no approval from either Allah or the Prophet about writing these hadith books after the Qur'aan.
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Old 01-26-2017, 03:41 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 772,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't think anyone wrote any hadith books at the time until Bukhari and Muslim decided to write hadith books 200 years after the Qur'aan was written.

The Sunnah is not something that is written down but something that is established in practice. It is method of practice passed on from generation to generation. It is like memorizing the Qur'aan. Once memorized, and recited on daily basis, you are not going to let it be changed. Interesting.
So I no longer need to read the Quran, I can just pick up verbal memorizations? You and I both know that is impractical brother. The same goes the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw)...why not write down what the practice was instead of relying on visual observations of contemporary practices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Just as the Qur'aan is preserved word by word through this method, Sunnah was preserved as it was practiced 5 times a day, every day, and from generation to generation for centuries. Hadith books did not reach everywhere in Islamic world for several centuries but they still prayed the same way, 5 times a day and in the same manner. This wasn't because of any hadith books but because of already established Sunnah (Practice).
Did we not write down the Quran? Why would we not write down hadeeth and the sunnah? Having two different rules for each does not make sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Well, loads of hadith books haven't stopped Muslims from disagreeing with each others. So many sects (cursed in the Qur'aan) are result of men writing books long after the Qur'aan. Islam's golden age lasted 2 centuries. It's golden age did not ebb away until they produced hadith books and left the Qur'aan on top shelf to catch dust.

There is no approval from either Allah or the Prophet about writing these hadith books after the Qur'aan.
No one is arguing that the Quran should be #2 to hadeeth...that is obvious. However Imam Bukhari and Muslim did a lot of the work on hadeeth and sunnah for us. They threw out ahadeeth that contradicted the Quran and performed a detailed analysis of orators and the chain of transmission. Why would we not accept these sources of knowledge about the Prophet (saw), his life and his companions when readily available? Again the ahadeeth complement the Quran, they don't contradict it.

To your one point regarding being able to pray in whatever way you'd like...that is not true. We must pray as the Prophet (saw) prayed. If there are differences in hadeeth regarding things like hand placement, etc... then that means the Prophet (saw) allowed both ways to occur if both ahadeeth are sahih.
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Old 01-27-2017, 02:34 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,047,626 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
So I no longer need to read the Quran, I can just pick up verbal memorizations?
Unless you are a Hafiz, you and I need to read from the Qur'aan.

I was trying to explain how Sunnah (Practice) was established.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
You and I both know that is impractical brother. The same goes the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw)...why not write down what the practice was instead of relying on visual observations of contemporary practices?
Because there is no need to write it down once it is established practice by thousands in any community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Did we not write down the Quran?
Yes, we did for recitation. That's what it means; something that is read and recited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Why would we not write down hadeeth and the sunnah? Having two different rules for each does not make sense.
The Qur'aan is approved by Allah. Hadeeth is not approved by Allah.
The only Sunnah mentioned in the Qur'aan is Sunnah of Allah. Sunnah of the Prophet is not mentioned in the Qur'aan. The concept of "Sunnah of the Prophet" was not known by the companions. It is a later development. If you ask 4 different scholars to describe "Sunnah of the Prophet", you are quite likely to get 4 different answers. This will show you that there is no established consensus about "Sunnah of the Prophet". Anything in the Qur'aan about doing the same as the Prophet did is specific for specific events. It is not about following him in practice in EVERYTHING he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
No one is arguing that the Quran should be #2 to hadeeth...that is obvious. However Imam Bukhari and Muslim did a lot of the work on hadeeth and sunnah for us. They threw out ahadeeth that contradicted the Quran and performed a detailed analysis of orators and the chain of transmission.
These ahadith are approved only by Bukhari and Muslim and never by Allah and His Messenger. Islam hasn't come from Bukhari and Muslim but from Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Why would we not accept these sources of knowledge about the Prophet (saw), his life and his companions when readily available?
Because these sources are not approved by Allah or even by the Messenger of Allah. Muslims today have forgotten the Message and made the Messenger the focus of their attention. In fact, it isn't even the Messenger their focus of attention but Muhammad. Allah has differentiated between the two when saying, "obey Allah and the Messenger" but never "obey Allah and Muhammad". The Qur'aan is what the Messenger had said and the hadeeth books are what Muhammad had said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
Again the ahadeeth complement the Quran, they don't contradict it.
Not quite true in case of every hadeeth. Many do not agree with each others. Others contradict the Qur'aan. For example, you will find even in so-called authentic hadeeth Muslims having sex with captives immediately after a battle. No mention of any Nikah or anything like that. This is not Islam. In Islam, there is no sex outside a marriage. It is these hadeeth books that have damaged our Deen. There are also ahadeeth which are attributed to the Prophet. There is no way the Prophet would have said some of what is written in these hadeeth books. It is obvious that some of them are fabrications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
To your one point regarding being able to pray in whatever way you'd like...that is not true. We must pray as the Prophet (saw) prayed.
This rule is not that rigid. It is preferred but not strictly followed if you are not able to follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
If there are differences in hadeeth regarding things like hand placement, etc... then that means the Prophet (saw) allowed both ways to occur if both ahadeeth are sahih.
Hand placement is not the prayer but what is said. It is important to know what you are saying during a prayer rather than be more conscious of your hand placement. Clerics are hell bent on teaching more about hand placement than making us good Muslims. Their bread depends on being strict about non-strict things. Our Deen isn't that strict, entrenched, overbearing and so dogmatic. Our Deen is beautiful and quite flexible Deen.
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