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Old 01-06-2017, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Is Classical Arabic to Islam what Latin was to Roman Catholicism - the official language of the religion? Does that mean that an Indonesian who wants to study Islam have to learn Classical Arabic?
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Is Classical Arabic to Islam what Latin was to Roman Catholicism - the official language of the religion? Does that mean that an Indonesian who wants to study Islam have to learn Classical Arabic?
The basic premise is that one can live their life as a Muslim without learning classical Arabic and can gather quite a bit of knowledge to use in their daily lives/family/etc...

However to issue fatwa (verdicts) or perform independent tafsir (interpretation/analysis) of the Quran and Hadeeth, one would need to learn the Fusha (classical) Arabic to a high degree.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Is Classical Arabic to Islam what Latin was to Roman Catholicism - the official language of the religion?
The only reason the Qur'aan was revealed in the Arabic language was that the messenger could deliver it clearly to the people around him. They were the ones most in need of the guidance at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Does that mean that an Indonesian who wants to study Islam have to learn Classical Arabic?
No.

First the language of the Qur'aan:

It is clear Arabic language (26:195).

Is in the language of people around the messenger (14:4)

[46.12] And before it the Book of Moses was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who do wrong and as good news for the doers of good.

Second, it verifies the Book of Moses before it in Arabic language so that it may warn those who do wrong and gives good news to the good people. In other words, nothing has been said in it that was not said to the messengers before the Qur'aan was revealed.

Third, learning the language is not absolutely vital in this day and age of translations and the internet to learn about Islam. But if someone wants to study it much deeper in order to teach or debate with others then understanding the language in the Qur'aan is going to be needed. Majority of Muslims today do not understand Arabic but it hasn't stopped them from performing what is required of them as Muslims.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Is Classical Arabic to Islam what Latin was to Roman Catholicism - the official language of the religion?
The facts are these;

1. Language as we all know is a VERY fluid thing. A meaning in one language can change within short while. e.g. the term 'gay' and 'lesbian' which was hijacked by the LBGT community.

2. To facilitate understanding by the Qureshis, Allah in principle used the language of Qureshi to reveal the Quran to Muhammad over 23 years from 610 to 632AD.

3. The Quran is supposed to be perfected, completed, final and immutable [cannot be changed].

4. Since the meaning cannot be changed, the language of the Quran has to be frozen to that of the period wit was revealed to ensure the meaning of the words used are as intended by Allah.

5. Therefore to be precise the Arabic Language of the Quran which is also labelled as Classical Arabic can only the the Arabic that is specific to the Qureshi Meccan used during the period 610 to 632AD.

6. As I noted, whilst the Classical Arabic [610-632Ad] is the official language of the Quran, it is not the official language of the religion, i.e. Islam on the practical level in various Nations.

Quote:
Does that mean that an Indonesian who wants to study Islam have to learn Classical Arabic?
What is critical with Islam is the intended Message from Allah which can be in any language and not necessary only in classical Arabic.
14:4. And We [Allah] never sent a messenger save [except] with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them.
It is claimed that Allah had sent thousands [up to hundred+ thousand] prophet and messengers. Therefore according to 14:4 Allah must have sent messengers in many languages and in various dialects as well.

Therefore an Indonesian who wants to study need not have to study Classical Arabic since the generic principles within Islam are readily understood in any other languages the original Quran is translated into.
The proviso and concession from Allah is a Muslims must do his/her best to the best of his capability.
However if one were to do much better than the average Muslims, then it would be better if s/he read the Quran in classical Arabic.
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Old 01-07-2017, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Although the study of the Qur'an and the Study of Islam are entwined they are separate topics.

It is possible for one to Study the Qur'an without studying Islam.

A Full study of Islam includes but is not limited to:

Learning the Basic Beliefs of Muslims
Learning the 5 Pillars of Islam
Qur'anic Studies
Science of Hadith
Study of Fatwas
Study of Islamic Jurisprudence
Islamic History
Study of Sunnah (Islamic Tradition)
Study of Qur'anic Arabic
Learning to be Hafiz
Study of classical Tafsir
Study of Contemporary Tafsir

But basically The essential studies would be to learn the "Pillars of Islam" and the "Beliefs of Muslims"

As a Muslim we are committed to a life time of study and always questioning all things, to the best of our ability

With all that said one can become a pious Muslim without ever learning a single word of Arabic
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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On a side note I question if the Qur'an can be called "Classical Arabic" at the time the Qur'an was revealed written Arabic was still developing. Rules of grammar or punctuation had not yet developed. It was a unique dialect never heard before and never heard again except in the recitations of the Hafiz.

While Classical Arabic began developing at the same time the Qur'an was being revealed they are not exactly the same as no other book as ever been written in Qur'anic Arabic. Grammar rules and punctuation developed in Classical Arabic in the 8th century and are not found in Qur'an.

While learning Classical Arabic can help in learning Qur'anic Arabic, the two do differ.
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
On a side note I question if the Qur'an can be called "Classical Arabic" at the time the Qur'an was revealed written Arabic was still developing. Rules of grammar or punctuation had not yet developed. It was a unique dialect never heard before and never heard again except in the recitations of the Hafiz.

While Classical Arabic began developing at the same time the Qur'an was being revealed they are not exactly the same as no other book as ever been written in Qur'anic Arabic. Grammar rules and punctuation developed in Classical Arabic in the 8th century and are not found in Qur'an.

While learning Classical Arabic can help in learning Qur'anic Arabic, the two do differ.
This is a matter of definition and consensus. I did hesitate in calling Quran Arabic, Classical Arabic, but that seem to be the consensus;

Quote:
Classical Arabic is also referred to as Quranic Arabic as it is the written language of the Quaran, the main spiritual text of Islam. While there are many ancient forms of Arabic, Classical Arabic is the only surviving language of a group of Arabic dialects known as Old North Arabian. Classical Arabic is no longer a spoken language and is primarily used for religious purposes. If one desires to read the Quaran in its original language, then a thorough study of Classical Arabic would be needed.

https://www.livelingua.com/blog/the-...andard-arabic/

Classical Arabic (CA), also known as Quranic Arabic or occasionally Mudari Arabic, is the form of the Arabic language used in literary texts from Umayyad and Abbasid times (7th to 9th centuries). It is based on the medieval dialects of Arab tribes. -wiki
This is why I am very specific,

Quranic Arabic is the language used by the Meccan Qureshi during the period from 610 to 632AD, i.e. the specific period the Quran was revealed to Muhammad via Angel Gabriel. To be precise, Quranic Arabic cannot be outside and more than the above.

Because the Quran is immutable, Quranic Arabic must be frozen and specific to the above conditions.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a matter of definition and consensus. I did hesitate in calling Quran Arabic, Classical Arabic, but that seem to be the consensus;



This is why I am very specific,

Quranic Arabic is the language used by the Meccan Qureshi during the period from 610 to 632AD, i.e. the specific period the Quran was revealed to Muhammad via Angel Gabriel. To be precise, Quranic Arabic cannot be outside and more than the above.

Because the Quran is immutable, Quranic Arabic must be frozen and specific to the above conditions.

Classical Arabic still had not fully developed at the time the Qur'an was being developed. classical Arabic did attempt to incorporate some of the beauty of Qur'anic Arabic but they are two different dialects.

Sadly even some Muslims refer to the Qur'an as Classical Arabic. However no one has ever been able to create a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Classical Arabic still had not fully developed at the time the Qur'an was being developed. classical Arabic did attempt to incorporate some of the beauty of Qur'anic Arabic but they are two different dialects.
As I had stated, it depend on one's definition of what is classical Arabic.

If there is a sufficient majority to agree 'Classical Arabic is such-X and such-Y, then it is such-X and such-Y.

However, Quranic Arabic is fixed and there is only one Quranic-Arabic by definition.

Quote:
Sadly even some Muslims refer to the Qur'an as Classical Arabic. However no one has ever been able to create a single original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic.
This is an odd statement.
I think it is a case that no one has bothered about such matter.
What most would bother is when they read the Quran in Arabic, they read Quranic-Arabic because Allah declared the Quran is immutable. So the serious readers is forced to read in Quranic Arabic to get as close as possible to the original meanings.

Note this site that provide a detailed analysis in terms of syntax and morphology for each Arabic verse [see below].
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
So it is not difficult for any one to follow the same patterns [syntax and morphology] of various Quranic verses with different words and thus produce a sentence that is exactly the same syntax as the Quran.

I don't think there is much interest among most in such a task [except for fun] as the end product would be useless [no $ value] for the modern era.


Last edited by Continuum; 01-09-2017 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:39 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
The basic premise is that one can live their life as a Muslim without learning classical Arabic and can gather quite a bit of knowledge to use in their daily lives/family/etc...

However to issue fatwa (verdicts) or perform independent tafsir (interpretation/analysis) of the Quran and Hadeeth, one would need to learn the Fusha (classical) Arabic to a high degree.
Hi folks, I agree 90% , and would say that nowadays any Non-Arab Muslim can issue fatwa (verdicts) even if he does not speak Arabic as natives. (why) because tons if Islamic resources ( Creed, Explanations, jurisprudence or Fikih) are available in other languages. and one needs such factors to digest Sharia and start making its decisions to the best he or she can.
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