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Old 01-11-2017, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am aware there are many claims to how the Kaaba first appear. It depends on who is writing the point, thus the bias.

But the point is during the time of Muhammad;s life, he was surely aware for 40 years the Kaaba was used by the Meccans of various religions by the locals and the other visitors. There was also money to be made by those who manage the Kaaba then.

The moral problem from humanity's perspective is Muhammad had experienced altered states of consciousness with an aggressive basis.
He preached aggressively and provoked the Meccans [religion being a very sensitive matter].
Based on martial might and aggression Muhammad overpowered the martially weaker Meccans - this is purely bullying by the one who started the provocations. Then Muhammad hijacked, destroyed parts and stole the Kaaba for himself instead of building his own. Can any one counter the above moral wrongs?

The other point is Khalif portrayed the wrong picture to suit his views by implying "ALL" the Meccans were dancing naked around the Kaaba.
To clarify the picture There was an agreement between the Muslims and the Idol-worshipers. They were permitted to use the Kaaba as they desire for all but the six days of Hajj each year. When the Muslims came to do Hajj they deliberately prevented Hajj by dancing Naked around the Kaaba and taunting the Muslims as they attempted to perform the Hajj.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:40 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
To clarify the picture There was an agreement between the Muslims and the Idol-worshipers. They were permitted to use the Kaaba as they desire for all but the six days of Hajj each year. When the Muslims came to do Hajj they deliberately prevented Hajj by dancing Naked around the Kaaba and taunting the Muslims as they attempted to perform the Hajj.
Continuum did not know that too.
His "research" has been focused on meeting his preconceived conclusion. This inevitably had to lead him to see only Muhammad the bad guy and Meccans the good guys.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:28 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am aware there are many claims to how the Kaaba first appear. It depends on who is writing the point, thus the bias.
If you had used your famous rationality, you would have known that at one time in the history of Ka'aba Ishmael and his sons worshiped there. Ishmael was circumcised and so was Muhammad even before the revelation of the Qur'aan. As the Ka'aba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, it is inevitable that it was used by the Jews that followed later from the seed of Abraham through Isaac line. That's how they were found in Arabia when the Qur'aan was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).

I hope this helps your research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But the point is during the time of Muhammad;s life, he was surely aware for 40 years the Kaaba was used by the Meccans of various religions by the locals and the other visitors. There was also money to be made by those who manage the Kaaba then.
Muhammad did not know that it was used by the Ishmaelites in the past until Allah told him through the revelation of the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The moral problem from humanity's perspective is Muhammad had experienced altered states of consciousness with an aggressive basis.
A load of bull!

He was the most patient and honest man in that community. Even those who did not like the message he was delivering used to trust his honesty in safeguarding their belongings (money and jewellery etc). He had left all those things with Ali to be returned to their rightful owners the night he was going to be killed by the Meccans.

Muhammad had received the Message but for more than two years he did not preach outside his own immediate family and very close friends. When he was commanded to preach, he was stoned. Powerful Meccans did not believe him. They could see their profits disappearing if only One God was worshiped around the Ka'aba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
He preached aggressively and provoked the Meccans [religion being a very sensitive matter].
Aggressive were those Meccans who began to kill first. You don't want to know that, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Based on martial might and aggression Muhammad overpowered the martially weaker Meccans - this is purely bullying by the one who started the provocations.
It was the Meccan might that had forced Muslims to flee from Mecca to save their lives. Had it been aggression from Muhammad, it would have been Meccans fleeing from Mecca and not Muhammad. Your accusation of Muhammad here is baseless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then Muhammad hijacked, destroyed parts and stole the Kaaba for himself instead of building his own. Can any one counter the above moral wrongs?
He was never interested in having Ka'aba for himself. All he wanted was to bring worship of One God back to the place. Ka'aba was built and belonged to Muslims of old. It was stolen by the forefathers of idol worshipers who were once Muslims of old. They had to return the Ka'aba to One God's worship after 22 years of stupidity against Muhammad and Muslims. With a bit of sense, they could have done it much earlier before they had to beg Muhammad to forgive them (which he did).
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If you had used your famous rationality, you would have known that at one time in the history of Ka'aba Ishmael and his sons worshiped there. Ishmael was circumcised and so was Muhammad even before the revelation of the Qur'aan. As the Ka'aba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, it is inevitable that it was used by the Jews that followed later from the seed of Abraham through Isaac line. That's how they were found in Arabia when the Qur'aan was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).

I hope this helps your research.

Muhammad did not know that it was used by the Ishmaelites in the past until Allah told him through the revelation of the Qur'aan.

A load of bull!

He was the most patient and honest man in that community. Even those who did not like the message he was delivering used to trust his honesty in safeguarding their belongings (money and jewellery etc). He had left all those things with Ali to be returned to their rightful owners the night he was going to be killed by the Meccans.

Muhammad had received the Message but for more than two years he did not preach outside his own immediate family and very close friends. When he was commanded to preach, he was stoned. Powerful Meccans did not believe him. They could see their profits disappearing if only One God was worshiped around the Ka'aba.

Aggressive were those Meccans who began to kill first. You don't want to know that, do you?

It was the Meccan might that had forced Muslims to flee from Mecca to save their lives. Had it been aggression from Muhammad, it would have been Meccans fleeing from Mecca and not Muhammad. Your accusation of Muhammad here is baseless.

He was never interested in having Ka'aba for himself. All he wanted was to bring worship of One God back to the place. Ka'aba was built and belonged to Muslims of old. It was stolen by the forefathers of idol worshipers who were once Muslims of old. They had to return the Ka'aba to One God's worship after 22 years of stupidity against Muhammad and Muslims. With a bit of sense, they could have done it much earlier before they had to beg Muhammad to forgive them (which he did).
Historical records are by default bias especially those before our modern era without genuine camera, video and sound recordings.

The only way to remove the bias is to verify against various known evidence but the best of such effort can never erased the inherent bias in those historical records of old.

Your claims based on historical records from bias parties and your own bias psychology cannot be credible.

One of most credible basis to verify historical records is to verify in parallel with human nature because the fundamental human elements has not changed since homosapiens emerged millions of years ago.
For example while the types and ways food are taken has changed over the million of years, what is constant for million of years is all human still eat with the mouth and defecate through the anus.
This constancy is the same for other mental fundamentals re instincts, emotions and other basic psychology.

I have applied the above elements to counter-check your historical claims that the Meccans, Muhammad and other behaved in such a such a way, which I believe is very bias, i.e. confirmation bias. What I had proposed can be verified with basic human nature and psychology.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:33 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
What is the concept of the people الذمة

How to respect religions and called on human impure انما المشركون نجس
The religious and racial discrimination is one of the essential attributes of Islam
The term unbeliever is announced at the idea of racial and religious discrimination
Am I out of the question
You say that Islam respects the rights of others
That is why I made the answer to this speech
Islam does not know the concept of citizenship
But he knows the concept of the infidel and Alzmma
Alzmma is the one who does not believe in Islam, but from the people of the Book, Jews or Christians
Since you live in the West Country
It will accept to be discrimination in this form
Now that the polytheists impure
These are the words of the Koran and not innovation
If the polytheists impure
It is pure
So here is a Muslim
Does this mean respect for the rights of others
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:41 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The idol worshipers in Mecca were new comers. The Kaaba was originally a Jewish temple, then a Christian Church shortly before or after the birth of Muhammad(saws) the idol worshipers took it over. Most of them were not even residents of Mecca, but came to Mecca to buy or sell goods. At the time of Muhammad(saws) Mecca was nearly 100% Jewish with periodic arrivals of temporary pagan Merchants.
Where are your sources
Jews do not have a presence in Mecca
The presence of Jews in Yathrib, Medina
Who were in Mecca to follow the Nestorian doctrine probably too old Arab religion which is to worship the God of the Moon
Islam did not eliminate all the rituals of religion Lunar
But he moved to Islam
Including the cult of the Black Stone
And keep track of the lunar crescent in determining prayer and fasting schedules
Crescent is one of the slogans of the Arab
Because of the Lunar New Religion
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Where are your sources
Jews do not have a presence in Mecca
The presence of Jews in Yathrib, Medina
Who were in Mecca to follow the Nestorian doctrine probably too old Arab religion which is to worship the God of the Moon
Islam did not eliminate all the rituals of religion Lunar
But he moved to Islam
Including the cult of the Black Stone
And keep track of the lunar crescent in determining prayer and fasting schedules
Crescent is one of the slogans of the Arab
Because of the Lunar New Religion
True today there is no presence of Jews in Mecca. But in Arab and Jewish Stories of the era there were Jews in Mecca.

From a non-Muslim Source

Quote:
THE NORTH

I Will start on the Jews of the North.

Before Islam, they dominated many of the main oasis in the West of Arabia and had also settled in the present-day Gulf States - Bahrain in particular. There was even a tiny Jewish community with its own cemetery in Mecca. Curiously enough, Naim Dangoor told me that a Saudi Arabian father of many children from the Gulf area visited him with his family, about 8 years ago to ask for help in emigrating to Israel. He claimed to be one of a large group of Muslims of Jewish origin who had always maintained a separate identity, praying together and marrying only amongst themselves. Naim believed the story and contacted the Israeli Embassy on the man's behalf - but without success.

The Jews of Arabia
In Arab stories you will hear that Abraham and His Son Ishmael started a Jewish Community in Mecca

Apparently you are unaware of what the "Black Stone" is. It is nothing that is worshiped or ever was worshiped. It is not even a single stone. It is a small group of 8 fragments embedded in black wax. These are the remains of the alter that was inside the original Ka'aba.

Quote:
Important Note: The black stone is not the entire big black thing you see, but actually eight small pieces within it (because it was broken and damaged in the past). Make sure you actually aim right and kiss one of the actual seven stones, and not the black wax encasing.

Pucker Up! How To Kiss the Black Stone Every Time | MuslimMatters.org
The Crescent was not a symbol of Islam. It came from the Ottoms. It was on their flag and the Europeans assumed it represented Islam. In time that became a world wide opinion. Has nothing to do with Islam.

Quote:
The hilal (Star and Crescent moon) does not, in fact represent Islam. It pre-dates Islam by about 2000 years. It appears, for instance, on the seals and decorations of the Moabites, of Israel, at about 1500BC.

In the past, it was most notably used on the flag of the Ottoman Empire - especially its navy:

So, it became emblematic of Islamic power, throughout Europe and beyond, in this period. It remains the symbol on the national flag of Turkey, for this reason.

From this, many other, largely Islamic, countries (especially many of the ones set up in the dissolution of the USSR) included the hilal in their national flags - in the same way that many European nations include the cross. It's sort-of-cultural, but not very significant. Some suggest it represents the lunar month, the period of fasting observed during Ramadan, but if does, the fact that its existence was common place throughout Arabia and across Moghul India, long before Islam, indicates that is an adoption, rather than central to that faith.

Since the 1960s, various Islamist movements have also adopted the hilal (probably because of its Ottoman connotations), and so it is often assumed to be an inherently Islamic symbol.

https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-ne...ymbol-of-Islam
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:59 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Where are your sources
Jews do not have a presence in Mecca
Not now but in the past before they became pagans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
The presence of Jews in Yathrib, Medina
Now now but over 1437 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Who were in Mecca to follow the Nestorian doctrine probably too old
Those who were in Mecca became pagans. They liked worshiping idols and using them as business and making money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Arab religion which is to worship the God of the Moon
And God of Sun and
God of Humans and
God of Jinns and
God of Angels and
God of Stars and
God of Day and
God of Night and
God of Abraham and
God of Ishmael and
God of Kedar and
God of Moses and
God of Jesus and
God of David and
God of Joseph and
God of Jacob and
God of Isaac and
God of Muhammad and
God of two Easts and
God of two Wests and
God of Heavens and Earth.

Who is your God, mahasn sawresho?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Islam did not eliminate all the rituals of religion Lunar
Check again, Lunar is not religion but a month. 12 lunar months make one lunar year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
But he moved to Islam
Including the cult of the Black Stone
Don't be so ignorant about the Black Stone! It is not a cult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
And keep track of the lunar crescent in determining prayer and fasting schedules
Not prayer! Where did you get that information from? There are 5 prayers every day. None depend on the lunar crescent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post
Crescent is one of the slogans of the Arab
Because of the Lunar New Religion
It's not the slogan of the Arabs but of Pakistanis and Turks. They are not Arabs. Have you ever noticed that the Arabs do not look for the crescent moon anymore but Pakistanis always do. For that reason, their lunar months begin often on different evenings but never in the morning.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:39 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True today there is no presence of Jews in Mecca. But in Arab and Jewish Stories of the era there were Jews in Mecca.

From a non-Muslim Source



In Arab stories you will hear that Abraham and His Son Ishmael started a Jewish Community in Mecca

Apparently you are unaware of what the "Black Stone" is. It is nothing that is worshiped or ever was worshiped. It is not even a single stone. It is a small group of 8 fragments embedded in black wax. These are the remains of the alter that was inside the original Ka'aba.



The Crescent was not a symbol of Islam. It came from the Ottoms. It was on their flag and the Europeans assumed it represented Islam. In time that became a world wide opinion. Has nothing to do with Islam.
Jews according to their religion away from places where the idols exist
Mecca was the Kaaba, a temple idols
It was the center to the goddess of the Arabs, including the Lat and Uzza and Manat third
And also it was Alencsary These class believes in the vicinity of the Nestorian Christianity
That's why the Jews did not dwell Mecca but was present in Yathrib
---------------

Crescent logo is one of the slogans of the ancient religions and religion Lunar Copier
They were scattered in Europe and also before the Christ
They are considered one of the Moon Goddess
And had a statue in the Kaaba also
------ Islam and transfer logo to hereditary traditions
-------
Black Stone was one piece, but it is broken
There are two incidents after Islam
They steal the Black Stone of Qaramita
And try to burn it too
Because some Muslims believe that
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:47 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 662,085 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not now but in the past before they became pagans.

Now now but over 1437 years ago.

Those who were in Mecca became pagans. They liked worshiping idols and using them as business and making money.

And God of Sun and
God of Humans and
God of Jinns and
God of Angels and
God of Stars and
God of Day and
God of Night and
God of Abraham and
God of Ishmael and
God of Kedar and
God of Moses and
God of Jesus and
God of David and
God of Joseph and
God of Jacob and
God of Isaac and
God of Muhammad and
God of two Easts and
God of two Wests and
God of Heavens and Earth.

Who is your God, mahasn sawresho?

Check again, Lunar is not religion but a month. 12 lunar months make one lunar year.

Don't be so ignorant about the Black Stone! It is not a cult.

Not prayer! Where did you get that information from? There are 5 prayers every day. None depend on the lunar crescent.

It's not the slogan of the Arabs but of Pakistanis and Turks. They are not Arabs. Have you ever noticed that the Arabs do not look for the crescent moon anymore but Pakistanis always do. For that reason, their lunar months begin often on different evenings but never in the morning.
The moon is important in the ceremony of prayer in Islam
In determining days
It is different from the solar calendar calendar
----------
Solar calendar depends on the night and the day relay
And the four seasons of the year
While the lunar calendar based on the moon and its phases in the sky
It is a fixed calendar
In other words, it is not based on the four seasons
And Sbbho that worship in some of the old religions have been to the moon-----
2---
I worship the God of love
Wherever this was God
Christianity says that God is love
While Islam says that Islam is the enemy of man and man kills
This is the essence of my faith
God is love
Even non-religious
If he thought that a man's love of God, he knows
But Muslims did not know God
Connect it to God with Mohammed
This is the involvement in the Godhead
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