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Old 01-07-2017, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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33:62. That was the Way [sunnata; سُنَّةَ] of Allah in the case of those [proto Muslims] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the Way [lisunnati] of Allah aught of power to change.
The above verse 33:62 state very clearly the sunnah of Allah cannot be changed with reference to Muslims of old and the same principle should apply to all messengers.

Thus any sunnah of Muhammad that is not aligned with the sunnah of Allah [in the Quran] cannot carry any divine authority.
Therefore the hadiths like covering of hair, stoning of adulteress and other hadiths that are not within the scope of the Quran cannot carry any divine authority from Allah.

Does any one has any counter views to the above?
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
33:62. That was the Way [sunnata; سُنَّةَ] of Allah in the case of those [proto Muslims] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the Way [lisunnati] of Allah aught of power to change.
The above verse 33:62 state very clearly the sunnah of Allah cannot be changed with reference to Muslims of old and the same principle should apply to all messengers.

Thus any sunnah of Muhammad that is not aligned with the sunnah of Allah [in the Quran] cannot carry any divine authority.
Therefore the hadiths like covering of hair, stoning of adulteress and other hadiths that are not within the scope of the Quran cannot carry any divine authority from Allah.

Does any one has any counter views to the above?
Continuum,

The "Sunnatillah" mentioned in 33:61 is all about the principle/practice Allah has always used to punish the evil doers in the history of mankind. This practice will never change. Even the evil-doing so-called Muslim will also be subject to such Principle/Practice of Allah. We can't compare such practice of Allah with the practice/sunnah of the prophet/messenger.

Sunnah of the Prophet is not mentioned in the Qur'an but is a term created later to refer to the way the Prophet had obeyed Allah (in practice). A lot more was added in it later on for which there is no authority from Allah.

So yes, we need to be aware of how the Prophet had obeyed (practically) the commands and the guidance in the Qur'aan and this was passed on from generation to generations of Muslims. That's what is known as Sunnah of the Prophet. Sunnah of the Prophet is not EVERYTHING Muhammad had done. For example, he lived in only Mecca and Madina. He wore only Arab dress of the time. He spoke only Arabic. He had 17 wives. He ate only the food available there at the time. He used to sleep on the floor. He used to ride a camel. We do none of that. He did not lie during his prophethood. We too should follow that Sunnah. Such Sunnah is intrinsically linked to the Qur'aan.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

The "Sunnatillah" mentioned in 33:61 is all about the principle/practice Allah has always used to punish the evil doers in the history of mankind. This practice will never change. Even the evil-doing so-called Muslim will also be subject to such Principle/Practice of Allah. We can't compare such practice of Allah with the practice/sunnah of the prophet/messenger.

Sunnah of the Prophet is not mentioned in the Qur'an but is a term created later to refer to the way the Prophet had obeyed Allah (in practice). A lot more was added in it later on for which there is no authority from Allah.

So yes, we need to be aware of how the Prophet had obeyed (practically) the commands and the guidance in the Qur'aan and this was passed on from generation to generations of Muslims. That's what is known as Sunnah of the Prophet. Sunnah of the Prophet is not EVERYTHING Muhammad had done. For example, he lived in only Mecca and Madina. He wore only Arab dress of the time. He spoke only Arabic. He had 17 wives. He ate only the food available there at the time. He used to sleep on the floor. He used to ride a camel. We do none of that. He did not lie during his prophethood. We too should follow that Sunnah. Such Sunnah is intrinsically linked to the Qur'aan.
Agree with the above.
What is interesting with this 33:62 and a few other verses is they used the term 'sunnah' [SNN].
Generally the term 'sunnah' is related to Muhammad all the time [if not 99.99%] but no one I have read relate the term 'sunnah' to Allah in the Quran.

Quote:
The "Sunnatillah" mentioned in 33:61 is all about the principle/practice Allah has always used to punish the evil doers in the history of mankind. This practice will never change. Even the evil-doing so-called Muslim will also be subject to such Principle/Practice of Allah. We can't compare such practice of Allah with the practice/sunnah of the prophet/messenger.
What I would emphasize it is the principles rather than the practices [modes of life]. The forms [practices] will change with time but the principle should remain the same.

Surely what is critical from "Sunnata Allahi" is not the "practices" but rather the principles that are to be extracted from the examples given as supported by contexts and verses elsewhere in the Quran.

Thus the critical focus on what cannot be changed are the principles involved.
33:62 relates to Muslims-of-old but the principles cannot be changed and these principles are reflected in the final Quran.


Here are ALL the verses in the Quran with the term 'sunnah' [SNN].
Note, not all the 'sunnah' in the verses below refer to the Sunnah of Allah.
One will have to read all of them and pick up those that relate to 33:62 in the same context.
3:137
قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ سُنَن ٌ فَسِيرُوا فِي الأَرْضِ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ
Qad Khalat Min Qablikum Sunanun Fasīrū Fī Al-'ArĐi Fānžurū Kayfa Kāna `Āqibatu Al-Mukadhdhibīna
Many nations have come before you, so roam the earth and see how the punishment was for the deniers.

4:26
يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَيَهْدِيَكُمْ سُنَنَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ وَيَتُوبَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيم ٌ
Yurīdu Allāhu Liyubayyina Lakum Wa Yahdiyakum Sunana Al-Ladhīna Min Qablikum Wa Yatūba `Alaykum Wa Allāhu `Alīmun Ĥakīmun
God wants to clarify for you and guide you to the paths of those before you, and pardon you, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

8:38
قُلْ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ يَنتَهُوا يُغْفَرْ لَهُمْ مَا قَدْ سَلَفَ وَإِنْ يَعُودُوا فَقَدْ مَضَتْ سُنَّةُ الأَوَّلِينَ
Qul Lilladhīna Kafarū 'In Yantahū Yughfar Lahum Mā Qad Salafa Wa 'In Ya`ūdū Faqad MaĐat Sunnatu Al-'Awwalīna
Say to the rejecters: "If they cease, then what has passed before will be forgiven to them, and if they return to it, then the example of the previous generations has already been given."

15:13
لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِه ِِ وَقَدْ خَلَتْ سُنَّةُ الأَوَّلِينَ
Lā Yu'uminūna Bihi Wa Qad Khalat Sunnatu Al-'Awwalīna
They do not believe in it, while the way of the earlier generations has gone before.

17:77
سُنَّةَ مَنْ قَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا وَلاَ تَجِدُ لِسُنَّتِنَا تَحْوِيلا ً
Sunnata Man Qad 'Arsalnā Qablaka Min Rusulinā Wa Lā Tajidu Lisunnatinā Taĥwīlāan
Such was the way of those whom We had sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.

18:55
وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَى وَيَسْتَغْفِرُوا رَبَّهُمْ إِلاَّ أَنْ تَأْتِيَهُمْ سُنَّةُ الأَوَّلِينَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ قُبُلا ً
Wa Mā Mana`a An-Nāsa 'An Yu'uminū 'Idh Jā'ahumu Al-Hudá Wa Yastaghfirū Rabbahum 'Illā 'An Ta'tiyahum Sunnatu Al-'Awwalīna 'Aw Ya'tiyahumu Al-`Adhābu Qubulāan
And what prevented the people from believing when the guidance came to them, and to seek forgiveness from their Lord? Are they waiting for what happened to the people of old to come to them, or that the retribution be brought to them face to face?

33:38
مَا كَانَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ مِنْ حَرَج ٍ فِيمَا فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَه ُُ سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ قَدَرا ً مَقْدُورا ً
Mā Kāna `Alá An-Nabīyi Min Ĥarajin Fīmā FaraĐa Allāhu Lahu Sunnata Allāhi Fī Al-Ladhīna Khalaw Min Qablu Wa Kāna 'Amru Allāhi Qadarāan Maqdūrāan
There is no blame on the prophet in doing anything that God has decreed upon him. Such was the way of God with the people of old. And the command of God is a determined duty.

33:62
سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلا ً
Sunnata Allāhi Fī Al-Ladhīna Khalaw Min Qablu Wa Lan Tajida Lisunnati Allāhi Tabdīlāan
This is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God.

33:62
سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلا ً
Sunnata Allāhi Fī Al-Ladhīna Khalaw Min Qablu Wa Lan Tajida Lisunnati Allāhi Tabdīlāan
This is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God.

35:43
اسْتِكْبَارا ً فِي الأَرْضِ وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ وَلاَ يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلاَّ بِأَهْلِه ِِ فَهَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ إِلاَّ سُنَّةَ الأَوَّلِينَ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلا ً وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلا ً
Astikbārāan Fī Al-'ArĐi Wa Makra As-Sayyi'i Wa Lā Yaĥīqu Al-Makru As-Sayyi'u 'Illā Bi'ahlihi Fahal Yanžurūna 'Illā Sunnata Al-'Awwalīna Falan Tajida Lisunnati Allāhi Tabdīlāan Wa Lan Tajida Lisunnati Allāhi Taĥwīlāan
Arrogance on the earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past? You will not find any change in the way of God, and you will not find any bypass to the way of God.


40:85
فَلَمْ يَكُ يَنْفَعُهُمْ إِيمَانُهُمْ لَمَّا رَأَوْا بَأْسَنَا سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ فِي عِبَادِه ِِ وَخَسِرَ هُنَالِكَ الْكَافِرُونَ
Falam Yaku Yanfa`uhum 'Īmānuhum Lammā Ra'aw Ba'sanā Sunnata Allāhi Allatī Qad Khalat Fī `Ibādihi Wa Khasira Hunālika Al-Kāfirūna
But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might; such is the way of God that has been established for His servants; and the rejecters were then totally in loss.

48:23
سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلا ً
Sunnata Allāhi Allatī Qad Khalat Min Qablu Wa Lan Tajida Lisunnati Allāhi Tabdīlāan
Such is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:21 AM
 
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Continuum,

You are correct in saying that people are talking about Sunnah of the Prophet but not talking about Sunnah of Allah that is actually mentioned in the Qur'aan several times. I have often mentioned this to my family and friends.

The practice of Allah related to good and evil people of the past is of course based on His principle of justice, as you sow so shall you reap.
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
33:62. That was the Way [sunnata; سُنَّةَ] of Allah in the case of those [proto Muslims] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the Way [lisunnati] of Allah aught of power to change.
The above verse 33:62 state very clearly the sunnah of Allah cannot be changed with reference to Muslims of old and the same principle should apply to all messengers.

Thus any sunnah of Muhammad that is not aligned with the sunnah of Allah [in the Quran] cannot carry any divine authority.
Therefore the hadiths like covering of hair, stoning of adulteress and other hadiths that are not within the scope of the Quran cannot carry any divine authority from Allah.

Does any one has any counter views to the above?
It is an oxymoron to say Sunnah can be changed. Sunnah is the actions that have been done.

Sunnatillah (Sunnah of Allaah) is everything Allaah(swt) has done and said. The Sunnah of Muhammad(saws) is everything he did and said.

Ahadith may or may not be the Sunnah of Muhammad(saws) some Ahadith are clearly Sunnah many are not.

As Sunnah is what was done, it can not be changed.

What can be changed is if one will emulate that which was done. As we are not gods none of us has the ability to emulate Allaah(swt)

As Muhammad(saws) was a man, it is possible for us to emulate what he has done. The Qur'an tells us we should do so


Quote:
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.

Quran Surah 33 (Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 21)
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is an oxymoron to say Sunnah can be changed. Sunnah is the actions that have been done.

Sunnatillah (Sunnah of Allaah) is everything Allaah(swt) has done and said. The Sunnah of Muhammad(saws) is everything he did and said.

Ahadith may or may not be the Sunnah of Muhammad(saws) some Ahadith are clearly Sunnah many are not.

As Sunnah is what was done, it can not be changed.
Agree, obviously what is actually done cannot be changed.

But it should also be obvious and common sense, any change refer to the reporting-of-what-is done and not the actual action done.

Quote:
What can be changed is if one will emulate that which was done. As we are not gods none of us has the ability to emulate Allaah(swt)
Humans do not have the power of Allah.
But obviously humans can strive to emulate the kindness and compassionate of Allah and other things that are within the human ability to do so.

Quote:
As Muhammad(saws) was a man, it is possible for us to emulate what he has done. The Qur'an tells us we should do so
Emulating what Muhammad had said or done is not the issue.

The issue is attributing divine authority to what Muhammad had said or done.
E.g.
1. All Muslima must cover their hair because Muhammad said so and that is because Allah said so through Muhammad's sayings.

2. All guilty adulteress must be stoned to death because Muhammad said so and that is because Allah said so through Muhammad's sayings.
The fact is Allah did not specifically state 1 and 2 in the Quran, i.e. conveyed by Allah directly to Muhammad.

It is the same for any other hadiths, if the content in context do not comply with the Quran, it cannot carry any divine authority and forced upon all Muslims as because Allah said so.

Therefore any Muslima should have the freedom not to cover her hair and there should be no peer pressure [morally wrong] imposed on her to cover her hair. As such her deeds are to be judged by Allah alone on Judgment Day and not by humans outside the scope of the Quran.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Agree, obviously what is actually done cannot be changed.

But it should also be obvious and common sense, any change refer to the reporting-of-what-is done and not the actual action done.

Humans do not have the power of Allah.
But obviously humans can strive to emulate the kindness and compassionate of Allah and other things that are within the human ability to do so.

Emulating what Muhammad had said or done is not the issue.

The issue is attributing divine authority to what Muhammad had said or done.
E.g.
1. All Muslima must cover their hair because Muhammad said so and that is because Allah said so through Muhammad's sayings.

2. All guilty adulteress must be stoned to death because Muhammad said so and that is because Allah said so through Muhammad's sayings.
The fact is Allah did not specifically state 1 and 2 in the Quran, i.e. conveyed by Allah directly to Muhammad.

It is the same for any other hadiths, if the content in context do not comply with the Quran, it cannot carry any divine authority and forced upon all Muslims as because Allah said so.

Therefore any Muslima should have the freedom not to cover her hair and there should be no peer pressure [morally wrong] imposed on her to cover her hair. As such her deeds are to be judged by Allah alone on Judgment Day and not by humans outside the scope of the Quran.
For all practical purposes, if something does not contradict the Qur'an, it is in compliance with the
Qur'an

To follow the teachings and example of Muhammad(saws) are very much part of the Qur'an as the Qur'an specifically states we are to do so. To learn how to perform Islam can only be done through the example and teachings of Muhammad(saws)

About the only resources we have to learn about the "Teachings" of Muhammad(saws} are the Ahadith and the Madhabs. To learn what Islam is, those also have to be studied.

While it is true we should not follow any religious instructor, unless we our self have validated what is said does not contradict the Qur'an, so far no one has been able to find any contradiction of the Qur'an in the 4 Madhabs.

As to what the Madhabs have to say about stoning an adulteress, the conditions under which it would be allowed are impossible to meet. As to any earthly punishment for a woman not covering her hair, there is none called for under any of the 4 madhabs.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
1. For all practical purposes, if something does not contradict the Qur'an, it is in compliance with the Qur'an

2. To follow the teachings and example of Muhammad(saws) are very much part of the Qur'an as the Qur'an specifically states we are to do so. To learn how to perform Islam can only be done through the example and teachings of Muhammad(saws)

3. About the only resources we have to learn about the "Teachings" of Muhammad(saws} are the Ahadith and the Madhabs. To learn what Islam is, those also have to be studied.
Your premise 1 is very misleading and can be ridiculous.
It I ask someone to jump up and down 1000 times each day, can I claim that is Islamic because it does not contradict the Quran.
It should be more direct and certain;
Whatever is to be Islamic, it must comply with the Quran, i.e. Allah's sole message and words.

Another problem is, your premise 2 is not valid.
In principle the Quran stated Muhammad is only a messenger and his duty is only to deliver, convey, warn and remind humankind of the MESSAGE of Allah.
As a Messenger of Allah, Muhammad main duty is the delivery of the message of Allah.

Muhammad could explain the message, but this can be done by any one as long as the explanation and tafsir are in accordance to the message of Allah within the 6,236 verses [n words, statements, verses, chapters] of the Quran.

Allah did exhort Muslims to obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but this is confined to the message delivered by the messengers and not any thing said and done by the messenger outside the scope of the Quran.
A crude example;
Obeying the company and the CEO of a company does not mean the beautiful secretary must obey her company's boss if he asked her to obey to give him a blow job.
Whatever is to be obeyed by the secretary or any employee of a company is confined to the scope within the terms of employment and general constitution of the company.
So in principle it is the same with obeying Muhammad,
What is to obeyed with reference to Muhammad must be confined within the scope of the Quran-only, i.e. the 6,236 verses [all words, statements, verses, chapters] of the Quran.

What happened with the Ahadith is some over zealous group of Muslims twisted the verses re "Obey Allah and Obey Muhammad" then abuse it to include statements that serve their own personal interests and biasness.
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