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If you have such views in doubting the authenticity of the Quran all Muslims are relying upon as above, you are insulting your Allah who is all-present, all-knowing and all powerful.
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tell me smth new please! I DO NOT doubt the integrity of Quran despite the fact that it is transported to us through men. I have no problem with that point. the problem is Khalif's coz he did not trust those Imams or scholar or even nearest companions like Abo Hurairah. the question is waiting for Khalif to answer it.
is this clear Continuum ?
Continuum, please be advised that I don't copy paste except for Quran texts only. for this reason I AM FULL of your long statements which are not interested.
The Qur'aan verses were written down immediately they were revealed and memorized from the outset. That's why every hafiz in the world could and still can confirm the authenticity of the Qur'aan in terms of its text since it was first compiled. Otherwise, there would have been differences in the memory of these people today.
Now don't tell me that it is so because Arabs said so. It is only common sense that each hafiz in the world has the same word by word memory because the same word by word Qur'aan has existed since it was compiled and memorized.
Good enough for you?
see Khalif, that is not correct. (Why)
As you know the prophet was illiterate. and those who wrote the Quran were the companions of prophet who are the same people you don't trust ! Is this Clear Khalif?
why should you Trust Abo Hurairah or others ? bearing in mind that the Quran was collected in one volume in the time of the third Khalifah after two decades of the death of prophet Mohammad (PBUH)? it might be altered!
See Khalif, I can defend the Quran and the Islam BUT you CANNOT, how could you while you defame the companions of prophet Mohammad? those whom were apprised in the Quran that you claim you follow?
Oh sickman.
Khalif, as I expect you Know nothing about the Islamic Shariah or Spirituality.
You may be Qadiani Ahmadi or Bhaii or even Martian but not like mainstream Muslim.
finally, you have high levels of racism and nasty language and that should give the right impression about your life in general.
tell me smth new please! I DO NOT doubt the integrity of Quran despite the fact that it is transported to us through men. I have no problem with that point. the problem is Khalif's coz he did not trust those Imams or scholar or even nearest companions like Abo Hurairah. the question is waiting for Khalif to answer it.
I have already answered the question when I described in my own way as to how the text of the Qur'aan has been preserved.
(1) Text of the hadith was never created at the same time as the Qur'aan was revealed and preserved.
(2) Hadith books were not created for about 200 years after the Qur'aan.
(3) Isnad of the Qur'aan runs into millions. This is not the case in case of hadith books.
(4) In many cases there are 2 versions of matn of the same hadith even in the so-called authentic hadith books. Which one is the authentic?
(5) According to the Qur'aan, we were not to believe any other hadith after The Hadith (Ayat of Allah).
(6) Ahadith or "Sunnah of the Prophet" is not the second revelation alongside the revelation of the Qur'aan.
Qur'aan is the only revelation that the messenger had delivered. Everything else is invention after the Qur'aan.
Here is a question for you:
In the verse 33:37, the Prophet said to Zaid, "keep your wife" but Zaid did not keep his wife; he divorced her.
Did Zaid disobey Muhammad or disobey the second revelation from the Prophet and the Messenger?
to-kalefa
Are you able to explain the verse surat -al-masad
And rely on only the Koran
And do not use any other source to explain this Surah
Allah claimed the Quran is fully explained in detail and the Quran explains itself.
111:1-5
تَبَّتْ يَدَا أَبِي لَهَبٍ وَتَبَّ
Tabbat yada abee lahabin watabba Perish (the) hands (of) Abu Lahab and perish he.
مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْهُ مَالُهُ وَمَا كَسَبَ
Ma aghna AAanhu maluhu wama kasaba
Not (will) avail him his wealth and what he earned.
سَيَصْلَىٰ نَارًا ذَاتَ لَهَبٍ
Sayasla naran thata lahabin
He will be burnt (in) a Fire of Blazing Flames,
وَامْرَأَتُهُ حَمَّالَةَ الْحَطَبِ
Waimraatuhu hammalata alhatabi
And his wife, (the) carrier (of) firewood,
فِي جِيدِهَا حَبْلٌ مِّن مَّسَدٍ
Fee jeediha hablun min masadin
In her neck (will be) a rope of palm-fiber.
There are many ways to understand the Quran and the Messages in the verses.
One approach is to compare to similar verses.
The critical word in the above 5 ayat is "naran."
In this case we have to refer to ALL verses that contain the term 'naran.' One verse among MANY is the following;
4:56. Lo! Those who disbelieve [KFR: kafarū] Our revelations, We shall expose them [the infidels] to the Fire.
There are many such verses in the Quran to that explain who will go to the Fire and what they have done to deserve the different ways they will be burnt.
From history it is known Abu Lahab [Abd al Uzza Ibn Abdul Muttalib] was the uncle of Muhammad, but even if we do not know who he is, it does not matter.
The critical message of 111:1-5 is, who ever is a kafir, s/he will perish in the Fire.
The Quran also state in many verses, even if it is one's son [Noah], Abraham's father, parents, children, as long as they are kafir, they will be burn in the Fire.
So whatever is said about Abu Lahab in the Ahadith is not critical knowledge and the main point is the Ahadith by its nature cannot be reliable anyway.
Another point here is whatever material thing earned in this world no matter how much or great will not benefit one in paradise regardless whether the person is a Muslim or kafir.
26:88. The day when wealth [mālun] and sons [banūna] avail not (any man)
58:17. Their [infidels] wealth [amwāluhum] and their children [awlāduhum] will avail them naught against Allah. Such [infidels] are rightful owners of the Fire; they [infidels] will abide therein.
Abu Lahab's wife is also tortured. We can conclude she was also a kafir.
So we can understand Surah 111 from the Quran itself by referring to other verses in the other Surah in the Quran.
There is no need to rely on the Ahadith to understand the main message from Allah.
Do you think knowing about Abu Lahab from the Ahadith or Sira will enable a Muslim to get more than 72 virgins?
The Quran is sufficient itself to convey the message of Allah. I know because I have done very deep and extensive research into the Quran and its message. I understand the message of the Quran but do not necessary accept it.
Last edited by Continuum; 03-18-2017 at 03:20 AM..
As you know the prophet was illiterate. and those who wrote the Quran were the companions of prophet who are the same people you don't trust ! Is this Clear Khalif?
Hold on, Resigned, none of the companions of the Prophet ever wrote any of your hadith books. They wrote the Qur'aan in presence of the Prophet, recited in front of the Prophet and memorized the Qur'aan with the Prophet. Nothing like that happened with the hadith books. Your argument about hadith being preserved the same way as the Qur'aan is false.
By this argument, all you are doing is creating doubts in your own mind that the Qur'aan was not preserved accurately. Perhaps you have no idea how the Qur'aan was preserved since the days of the Prophet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
why should you Trust Abo Hurairah or others ?
Let's say Abu Hurairah was a reliable person because a second companion said he was reliable. A third person said the second person was reliable and so on the 21st person said 20th person was reliable. How do you know that the 21st person himself was reliable when he is the only one saying to you that drinking camel urine is good for you?
In case of the Qur'aan, there are millions of people who have memorized the text of the Qur'aan the exactly same way as the Prophet did. Hadith books are no comparison with the Qur'aan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
bearing in mind that the Quran was collected in one volume in the time of the third Khalifah after two decades of the death of prophet Mohammad (PBUH)? it might be altered!
No wonder you are arguing with me in ignorance!
I am very surprised that the above statement has come from an Arab. It just goes to show how much about the Qur'aan is known to the Arabs of today.
The Qur'aan was revealed in portions. Each portion was written down in front of the Prophet exactly as the verses were revealed. Each portion of the verses was also memorized by the Prophet as well as several companions. Written verses were given to the companions for the safe keeping. Thus the Qur'aan revelation was preserved in two forms; in memory plus in written form.
After the Prophet, Abu Bakr had ordered to have the portions compiled into a book. The compiled complete copy was given to Hafsa for safe keeping. Each Hafiz was able to confirm the authenticity of the verses.
Uthman simply had pronunciation marks added with letters of the existing Qur'aan. Text itself was never changed. You need to update your knowledge about the preservation of the Qur'aan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
See Khalif, I can defend the Quran and the Islam BUT you CANNOT, how could you while you defame the companions of prophet Mohammad? those whom were apprised in the Quran that you claim you follow?
Don't accuse me with false allegations! I have defamed no companion of the Prophet.
It is you had claimed that there was revelation called "Sunnah of the Prophet" as there was revelation of the Qur'aan. You are being proved wrong. There was no other revelation alongside the Qur'aan from the Prophet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Oh sickman.
Khalif, as I expect you Know nothing about the Islamic Shariah or Spirituality.
You may be Qadiani Ahmadi or Bhaii or even Martian but not like mainstream Muslim.
finally, you have high levels of racism and nasty language and that should give the right impression about your life in general.
A moderator reading this from you is not going to like it. You calling another poster here a "sickman" is not a bright idea.
Khalif, as I expect you Know nothing about the Islamic Shariah or Spirituality.
You may be Qadiani Ahmadi or Bhaii or even Martian but not like mainstream Muslim.
From what Khalif has posted as a Muslim, he follows the Quran and do not accept the Ahadith.
In my view, those who follow the Quran as the ONLY divine authority of Islam are objectively the more truer Muslims than those who insist the Ahadith has divine authority to establish Sharia.
Here is a verse to support Islamic Sharia;
5:48.
And unto thee [Muhammad] have We revealed the Scripture [l-kitāba: Quran] with the truth [haqq; pristine original], confirming whatever Scripture was before it [Quran], and a Watcher over it.
So judge between them [Muslims] by that [revelation -Quran] which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their [infidels -sinners] desires [HWY; ahwāahum] away from the truth [haqq] which hath come unto thee.
For each [Jews, Christians, Islamists] We have appointed a Divine Law [ShR3: shir'ʿatan; Sharia] and a traced-out way [path of actions & practices].
Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He [Allah] may try you by that [revelation & traced out way] which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are).
So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye [people] will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
From the above one will note;
1. Allah had revealed to Muhammad via Angel Gabriel, a Scripture [l-kitāba].
2. Therein Allah has given to Muslims a set of Divine Laws [ShR3: shir'ʿatan; Sharia] as revealed to Muhammad [via Angel Gabriel].
3. Therefore the Islamic Sharia must and can ONLY be derived from the Quran as stated in 5:48.
The Islamic Sharia as shown in 5:48 cannot be derived from the Ahadith.
The Islamic Sharia must be from the Quran-only and no where else.
Where Muhammad had to judge, he should have judged it within the ambit of the Quran-only and not by anything outside the Quran.
45:18. And now have We set thee (O Muhammad) on a clear road [ShRA: sharīʿatin] of (Our) commandment; so follow it, and follow not the whims of those who know not.
In the above what Muhammad has to follow has to be based the revealed Quran via Angel Gabriel.
Whatever Muhammad did or was attributed to him without reference or link to Angel Gabriel [thus Quran] is not Islamic! e.g. covering of hair, stoning adulteress to death, etc.
I understand in the present age there may be necessary laws to be implemented to deal with current situations but these Laws should NEVER be attributed to Allah in the Quran. These Laws cannot be Islamic within Islamic Shariah per-se if they are not from the Quran.
If any Law is not from the Quran, then it should be qualified as man-made laws and should be subjected to criticisms and changes by Muslims and others.
(Personally I do not agree Laws and politics should be mixed with religion at all - that will be a recipe for hell on Earth)
Show your understanding of Islamic Shariah and Spirituality based on Allah's words from the Quran if you think otherwise?
Allah claimed the Quran is fully explained in detail and the Quran explains itself.
111:1-5
تَبَّتْ يَدَا أَبِي لَهَبٍ وَتَبَّ
Tabbat yada abee lahabin watabba Perish (the) hands (of) Abu Lahab and perish he.
مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْهُ مَالُهُ وَمَا كَسَبَ
Ma aghna AAanhu maluhu wama kasaba
Not (will) avail him his wealth and what he earned.
سَيَصْلَىٰ نَارًا ذَاتَ لَهَبٍ
Sayasla naran thata lahabin
He will be burnt (in) a Fire of Blazing Flames,
وَامْرَأَتُهُ حَمَّالَةَ الْحَطَبِ
Waimraatuhu hammalata alhatabi
And his wife, (the) carrier (of) firewood,
فِي جِيدِهَا حَبْلٌ مِّن مَّسَدٍ
Fee jeediha hablun min masadin
In her neck (will be) a rope of palm-fiber.
There are many ways to understand the Quran and the Messages in the verses.
One approach is to compare to similar verses.
The critical word in the above 5 ayat is "naran."
In this case we have to refer to ALL verses that contain the term 'naran.' One verse among MANY is the following;
4:56. Lo! Those who disbelieve [KFR: kafarū] Our revelations, We shall expose them [the infidels] to the Fire.
There are many such verses in the Quran to that explain who will go to the Fire and what they have done to deserve the different ways they will be burnt.
From history it is known Abu Lahab [Abd al Uzza Ibn Abdul Muttalib] was the uncle of Muhammad, but even if we do not know who he is, it does not matter.
The critical message of 111:1-5 is, who ever is a kafir, s/he will perish in the Fire.
The Quran also state in many verses, even if it is one's son [Noah], Abraham's father, parents, children, as long as they are kafir, they will be burn in the Fire.
So whatever is said about Abu Lahab in the Ahadith is not critical knowledge and the main point is the Ahadith by its nature cannot be reliable anyway.
Another point here is whatever material thing earned in this world no matter how much or great will not benefit one in paradise regardless whether the person is a Muslim or kafir.
26:88. The day when wealth [mālun] and sons [banūna] avail not (any man)
58:17. Their [infidels] wealth [amwāluhum] and their children [awlāduhum] will avail them naught against Allah. Such [infidels] are rightful owners of the Fire; they [infidels] will abide therein.
Abu Lahab's wife is also tortured. We can conclude she was also a kafir.
So we can understand Surah 111 from the Quran itself by referring to other verses in the other Surah in the Quran.
There is no need to rely on the Ahadith to understand the main message from Allah.
Do you think knowing about Abu Lahab from the Ahadith or Sira will enable a Muslim to get more than 72 virgins?
The Quran is sufficient itself to convey the message of Allah. I know because I have done very deep and extensive research into the Quran and its message. I understand the message of the Quran but do not necessary accept it.
How do we know of it is to Abo Hab if they do not go back to other Islamic books
The most important reasons to get off ( asbab -al -nezol)
And also why this curse on Abu -lahab
What does this poor guy did to deserve this curse
It is the message that your destination include these curses
-----------------
surat -al- al -nor -
Those who came Balivk League of you do not count him evil to you, but is good for you, each one of them gained from sin and who took them to him magnify a great punishment (
--------------
How do you understand this verse
And how to explain it to people
-----------------------
So the Koran does not explain himself
But you need to support other interpretations of verses of the Koran so you can understand that
There are many examples of this
Hold on, Resigned, none of the companions of the Prophet ever wrote any of your hadith books.
Did you hear about Ali bin Abi Talib message or booklet?
Did you hear about Abdullah bin Omer booklet?
you are either ignorant or liar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
By this argument, all you are doing is creating doubts in your own mind that the Qur'aan was not preserved accurately. Perhaps you have no idea how the Qur'aan was preserved since the days of the Prophet.
nope, As I told yo I believe the Holy Quran is correct and we believe that it was transmitted to this age through companions like abo Hurayrah ( who is bad in your opinion coz camel urine matter), I am realistic to believe everything come from abo Hurayrah wither it is a Quran or Sunnah.
you contradict when you accept Quran from Companions and don't accept Hadiths from them? according to your argument ( Companions are trustworthy regarding Quran but untrustworthy when it comes to Sunnah)?
You take it All or leave it All (when you suspect a company's product, you cut with all its products and brands) do you understand this rule Khalif ? no I THINK you don't understand the basics of theorizing Islamic rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Let's say Abu Hurairah was a reliable person because a second companion said he was reliable. A third person said the second person was reliable and so on the 21st person said 20th person was reliable. How do you know that the 21st person himself was reliable when he is the only one saying to you that drinking camel urine is good for you?
In case of the Qur'aan, there are millions of people who have memorized the text of the Qur'aan the exactly same way as the Prophet did. Hadith books are no comparison with the Qur'aan.
listen Khalif , Abo Hurairah and other companions were praised throughout Quran first, then they were praised in all Biography references written by Muslim Scholar and no one throughout Islamic History slander them or libel them except Shiite or alike.
those references books read and copied by Millions too(just like Quran) and no one criticize the Companions of Mohammad except Shiites and you or your similar .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
No wonder you are arguing with me in ignorance!
Haha, this is funny, but in general let those who read this forum have judge this matter " you know nothing about Ali bin Abi Taleb message or collection of Hadiths nor you do about ibn Omer's one . you are miserable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
I am very surprised that the above statement has come from an Arab. It just goes to show how much about the Qur'aan is known to the Arabs of today.
Thank God, I memorize chapter 1,2,3 and 4 ( from the opening Chapter to Women Chapter) that is around 100 pages.
and I mesmerized from the Spider Chapter to the end of the Quran ( that is around 200 pages)
in total , I memorize half of the Qruan and I got a proofreader certificate in Arabic Language as well.
the most important is that I don't copy paste or defame the Sunnah or contradict the the mainstream Muslims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
The Qur'aan was revealed in portions. Each portion was written down in front of the Prophet exactly as the verses were revealed. Each portion of the verses was also memorized by the Prophet as well as several companions. Written verses were given to the companions for the safe keeping. Thus the Qur'aan revelation was preserved in two forms; in memory plus in written form.
After the Prophet, Abu Bakr had ordered to have the portions compiled into a book. The compiled complete copy was given to Hafsa for safe keeping. Each Hafiz was able to confirm the authenticity of the verses.
Uthman simply had pronunciation marks added with letters of the existing Qur'aan. Text itself was never changed. You need to update your knowledge about the preservation of the Qur'aan.
Plus (copy paste) we all know this, but we Mainstream Muslim say that Sunnah was collected through memorization and writing just like Quran but You Khalif doesn't agree ?
Allah Almighty Said in the Holy Quran, Chapter 2 verse 129 "Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
Do you know what is the intended meaning by wisdom here?
if you read a book like Quran or any book in general, the benefit of reading should appear on your behavior, speech, way of life> that is the Sunnah of profit ( and in Arabic language we can get rid of this vocabulary Sunnah and replace it with the way of Prophet or his lifestyle. it is my language and you can not argue this fact Khalif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Don't accuse me with false allegations! I have defamed no companion of the Prophet.
when Abo Hurairah reported Camel Urine Hadith ( as you call it) Was abo Hurairah Honest or Liar?
if he is Honest you Should believe in his Hadith and needlessly to drink Camel Urine ! I don't drink it and I don't marry more than one and ...etc. but I believe it is lawful ( do or don't do ) that depend on necessity.
BUT, since you don't beleive in this hadith, that means you accuse the Companion Abo Hurairah of being liar? bearing in mind that abo Hurairah reported more than 3000 Hadiths, So you should not believe in one of them ( who could you trust a liar) This is Scientific Issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
It is you had claimed that there was revelation called "Sunnah of the Prophet" as there was revelation of the Qur'aan. You are being proved wrong. There was no other revelation alongside the Qur'aan from the Prophet.
Allah said in the Holy Quran, Chapter 53
"Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(4) It is not but a revelation revealed(5)"
Khalif, is there any exception or limitation here for the credibility of what prophet Mohammad says wither in verse or in normal speech?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
A moderator reading this from you is not going to like it. You calling another poster here a "sickman" is not a bright idea.
I don't make mistake by giving you this name. You approach is a Sickman's one
Khalif, don't forget you slander the prophet's lifestyle when you talk about marrying more women and when you talk about Arab in general. the prophet was an Arab too.
Khalif , you are poor educated and you are the first poor educated one I spent such long time with him. but I believe this was necessary to show the readers of this thread your dangerous cult of denying Sunnah.
Klaif, you are afflicted and affected with Christianity dogma.(why)? when you preach that one can read Quran Himself and know Islam just by reading the Quran without looking into any explanations or illustrations, You make the Quran just like the Bible. this idea is very Christian.
khalif, You have not answer either of my question? you said lots of things except the direct essence answer. and this is enough for you if you are sane.
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