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Old 04-09-2017, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Correction:

"I am very certain he did agree to the above."

should be;

"I am very certain he did NOT agree to the above."
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Old 04-10-2017, 01:25 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
"Quran-Only" is definitely not from the Quran, but it definitely represent what Allah main intention in the Quran, i.e. the Muslim's duty is only to obey the message of Allah in the Quran.
I could phrase it as 'obeying-Allah's-message-only' Muslims.
This will apply also to the Muslims-of-old who are supposed to obey the message in the Original revealed Taurat and Injil.
However note whatever is the present Taurat and Injil are technically corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time and circumstances, this rejected by the message within Quran.

Quran-Only-Muslims is a term to differentiate Quran+Ahadith Muslims.

There is no need to nick-pick on this because it is too tedious to write out the full context every time we discuss about the concept of Quran-Only-Muslims.
Personally, I do not regard myself with any group whatever if it is called other than just "Muslim". Any other name of group of Muslims is for division only. I do not ascribe to division of Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am very certain he did agree to the above.
Aidid is condemning those who pray 5 times a day facing the stone idol in Mecca and stated this is a wrong interpretation by the ulema.
Point is you did not read his views properly.
What! Read about "facing the stone idol in Mecca"?

Muslims do not face any stone idol in Mecca when they pray. I have prayed in Asia, prayed in Europe and prayed in Africa. I have prayed in Madina, prayed in Mecca and even prayed quite close to the Ka'aba but never prayed facing any stone idol. What the hell is Aidid talking about? He can't be a Muslim if he is claiming to have prayed facing a stone idol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, you are the one who stated Aidid disregarded verses from the Quran. I am asking you me to show me the evidence. So you have to show the evidence not me.
22:37. Instruction to say Allahu Akbar is in this verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Aidid was being sarcastic here to associate prayer as a 'dance' metaphorically not literally. 'Dance' in this case mean the ulema are playing around with words to scam the masses.
He was being foolish, not sarcastic. To regard body movements during a prayer as "dance" is ignorance and foolishness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The rest of your points are based on a significant misunderstanding of Aidid's book so your response is way off point.

If you read Aidid's book properly he presented his arguments very systematically, logically and generally I agree with his points, except some. Point is the ulema [most] may have substantial reading of the Quran but due to their evil proneness [& confirmation bias] they 'twist' and 'dance' with the interpretations of the Quran to suit their corrupted interests to scam the masses.
I am with ulema in this one. I have nothing to gain from such "evil proneness". I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that assalaat (the salaat) is prayer at appointed times. You cannot do evil deed when you are praying. Therefore, you learn not to do evil deed at other times too. Reason is stated in the Qur'aan.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am with ulema in this one. I have nothing to gain from such "evil proneness". I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that assalaat (the salaat) is prayer at appointed times. You cannot do evil deed when you are praying. Therefore, you learn not to do evil deed at other times too. Reason is stated in the Qur'aan.
Obviously when one is praying as in the case of most religious prayers, one is not doing any act that is evil.

But what is critical is how the prayers of Muslim influenced [subliminal brainwashing] their subsequent actions.

Btw, there are lots of evil acts by SOME Muslims after Friday congregation prayers from all over the World.
Such evil acts are catalyzed by - example 1:7 in Al Fatiha and sermons by the imans during those prayers and the enmity built up from the whole ethos of Islam [refer to SOME not all Muslims].
1:7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
English Translation of The Noble Quran - NobleQuran.com
Note this Quran is supported by the Saudi Government which represent the majority Muslims.
http://www.gph.gov.sa/qurantrans/fil...adLinkFull.pdf

I understand you personally will not get involve in evils and violence but you cannot ignore the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME of your fellow Muslims when inspired by certain verses from the same Quran your are reading during their prayers.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:38 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Obviously when one is praying as in the case of most religious prayers, one is not doing any act that is evil.
So when someone is not doing any evil act when praying, the prayer is preventing the person from doing evil act. This is the purpose of the prayer; to prevent someone at least 5 times of the day from doing evil. This is the point that must be noted as described in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But what is critical is how the prayers of Muslim influenced [subliminal brainwashing] their subsequent actions.
The prayers of this Muslim never influenced any evil action. And I am speaking from my personal experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, there are lots of evil acts by SOME Muslims after Friday congregation prayers from all over the World.
Not from the MOST Muslims! The point in the Qur'aan is proved true.

Further, if the evil acts of SOME were influenced by the Friday congregational prayer, why aren't the same evil acts influenced by all other congregational prayers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Such evil acts are catalyzed by - example 1:7 in Al Fatiha and sermons by the imans during those prayers and the enmity built up from the whole ethos of Islam [refer to SOME not all Muslims].
This is where your point has no leg to stand on. (a) The same Al-Fatiha is said by most Muslims at least 44 times every day (not only on Friday). I don't see 44 evil acts by these Muslims every day. Therefore, your critique of formal prayer, the Salaat, influencing Muslims to do evil acts is just as bad as your claim of the Qur'aan influencing evil acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1:7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
English Translation of The Noble Quran - NobleQuran.com
The words in brackets are neither in the Qur'aan nor are said in the prayer. So that one is out for this kind of argument.

In my understanding of the 1:7, reference to "those who earned anger" and "those who went astray" are neither ALL Jews nor ALL Christians but ALL in those categories including hypocrite Muslims and apostates as well as people of Noah long before any of the Jews and Christians were even born.

Don't forget that "on whom You have bestowed Your Grace" include both the Jews and Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this Quran is supported by the Saudi Government which represent the majority Muslims.
http://www.gph.gov.sa/qurantrans/fil...adLinkFull.pdf
Who told you that the Saudi Government represents the majority Muslims?

I have said it in the past and say it again, I don't believe 1:7 is reference to Jews and Christians particularly. Many Jews and Christians will be in Paradise and not all who proclaim to be Muslims will be missing from the Paradise. Only those will go to Paradise who believe and do good deeds. Not all Saudis are going to Paradise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand you personally will not get involve in evils and violence but you cannot ignore the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME of your fellow Muslims when inspired by certain verses from the same Quran your are reading during their prayers.
If MOST of my fellow Muslims are NOT inspired by those verses to do evil then your argument is a poor argument.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
So when someone is not doing any evil act when praying, the prayer is preventing the person from doing evil act. This is the purpose of the prayer; to prevent someone at least 5 times of the day from doing evil. This is the point that must be noted as described in the Qur'aan.
There are 24 hours a day or 17 hours of non-sleeping time for almost all people. So there is a lot of time for Muslims with active evil tendencies to do their thing.

If you believe salaat is praying and prostrating, don't forget 4:102 teach the Muslims how to pray in the midst of war in defending or attacking non-Muslims and hypocrites.

Quote:
The prayers of this Muslim never influenced any evil action. And I am speaking from my personal experience.
What sort of critical thinking are you presenting. The experience of 1/1,500,000 as evidence??

Quote:
Not from the MOST Muslims! The point in the Qur'aan is proved true.

Further, if the evil acts of SOME were influenced by the Friday congregational prayer, why aren't the same evil acts influenced by all other congregational prayers?

This is where your point has no leg to stand on. (a) The same Al-Fatiha is said by most Muslims at least 44 times every day (not only on Friday). I don't see 44 evil acts by these Muslims every day. Therefore, your critique of formal prayer, the Salaat, influencing Muslims to do evil acts is just as bad as your claim of the Qur'aan influencing evil acts.

The words in brackets are neither in the Qur'aan nor are said in the prayer. So that one is out for this kind of argument.

In my understanding of the 1:7, reference to "those who earned anger" and "those who went astray" are neither ALL Jews nor ALL Christians but ALL in those categories including hypocrite Muslims and apostates as well as people of Noah long before any of the Jews and Christians were even born.

If MOST of my fellow Muslims are NOT inspired by those verses to do evil then your argument is a poor argument.
Again your critical thinking is wanting here.

There are 1,500,000 billion Muslims around the world.
If 20% with active tendencies are influenced by 1:7 and other supporting verses [e.g. Jews are apes, swine, the worst of creatures, incur the wrath of God for changing and corrupting texts] then there are 300 million of Muslims around the world who are hating Jews. [personally I believe this is higher].
Even if it is only 1% for the more extreme one, there are 1.5 million of them.
Now 20++ [911] can cause so much terrible evils and even one lone wolf can also create much evils and terror.
The fact is those 300 millions of Muslims who has evil tendencies are committing a wide range of evils, violence and other crimes of various degrees against non-Muslims.

The words in [] are not in the prayers, but the words 'wrath' and 'astray' in 1:7 will naturally lead many to infer they refer to the Jews and Christians because the points are so obvious from the rest of the Quran and more so from the Ahadiths [for those who adopt it]. If any one do not think about it on their own, they will definitely be brainwashed by an iman in most [not all] of the mosques.

You claim mine is a poor argument? check your own critical thinking level in this case.

Quote:
Don't forget that "on whom You have bestowed Your Grace" include both the Jews and Christians.
I have said it in the past and say it again, I don't believe 1:7 is reference to Jews and Christians particularly. Many Jews and Christians will be in Paradise and not all who proclaim to be Muslims will be missing from the Paradise. Only those will go to Paradise who believe and do good deeds. Not all Saudis are going to Paradise.
Some Jews and Christians of old will go to Paradise on Judgment Day [a myth anyway] but not those Jews and Christians who are adopting the Bible and Torah [corrupted as claimed] that are available at the present.

Quote:
Who told you that the Saudi Government represents the majority Muslims?
I understand the Saudis are Wahabbis and Salafists while the majority of Muslims are not.
My perspective on the above claim is the Saudi Government is the caretaker of the Kaaba and Mecca where all [99%] Muslims focus their attention on at least 5 times a day and pilgrimage to. In this sense the Saudi Government represents the majority of Muslims.

I understand Muslims are given a copy of the Hilali & Khan's translated Quran during the hajj or umra. Were you offered one or received one copy when you did your hajj?
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are 24 hours a day or 17 hours of non-sleeping time for almost all people. So there is a lot of time for Muslims with active evil tendencies to do their thing.
All people have potential to do evil acts. The salaat helps train people not to do evil acts. Your "evil tendencies" is a different topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you believe salaat is praying and prostrating, don't forget 4:102 teach the Muslims how to pray in the midst of war in defending or attacking non-Muslims and hypocrites.
They can't be attacking anyone when they are praying. Your point is useless to back up your argument.

[4.103] Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

Is "commitment" a timed ordinance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What sort of critical thinking are you presenting. The experience of 1/1,500,000 as evidence??
I am presenting at least one personal experience whereas you present no personal experience. Where is your critical thinking? Even imagined 20% against 80% is not critical thinking but merely a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again your critical thinking is wanting here.
It's the other way round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are 1,500,000 billion Muslims around the world.
If 20% with active tendencies are influenced by 1:7 and other supporting verses [e.g. Jews are apes, swine, the worst of creatures, incur the wrath of God for changing and corrupting texts] then there are 300 million of Muslims around the world who are hating Jews. [personally I believe this is higher].
Your critical thinking bites the dust when you ignore my explanation about 1:7. Jews and Christians are not mentioned in 1:7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Even if it is only 1% for the more extreme one, there are 1.5 million of them.
All that your point proves is that 1.5 million misinterpret the verse 1:7. It proves nothing else as Jews and Christians aren't even mentioned in 1:7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Now 20++ [911] can cause so much terrible evils and even one lone wolf can also create much evils and terror.
Your "critical" thinking is focused on negative rather than positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is those 300 millions of Muslims who has evil tendencies are committing a wide range of evils, violence and other crimes of various degrees against non-Muslims.
They are doing it in response to 20% of the non-muslims committing a range of evil and violence on Muslims. It is not because of 1:7, which is a prayer of a far greater number than 300 millions. Hed it been because of 1:7, billions would be do evil and violence on Jews and Christians. Where is your critical thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The words in [] are not in the prayers, but the words 'wrath' and 'astray' in 1:7 will naturally lead many to infer they refer to the Jews and Christians because the points are so obvious from the rest of the Quran and more so from the Ahadiths [for those who adopt it]. If any one do not think about it on their own, they will definitely be brainwashed by an iman in most [not all] of the mosques.
Wrath and astray are general words that can refer to any evil or misguided people before revelation of the Taurat (Torah) or post revelation of the Torah. Wrath of God on Noah's people is well known even in Jewish people. But you are not even thinking about that in your "critical" thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You claim mine is a poor argument? check your own critical thinking level in this case.
Ignoring 80% (your figure) and making 20% (your figure) as your critical argument is a very poor argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Some Jews and Christians of old will go to Paradise on Judgment Day [a myth anyway] but not those Jews and Christians who are adopting the Bible and Torah [corrupted as claimed] that are available at the present.
Nonsense!

Had your "critical" argument here is of no use as Allah has spoken in favor of churches and synagogues along with mosques (in which God's name is remembered much 22:40). That means even the Jews and Christians present at the time of the revelation of the Qur'aan were going to Paradise. That's why Allah wanted the churches and the synagogues preserved even then. But you won't think that way because your thinking is not critical. It is focused only on the negative (minority) rather than positive (majority).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand the Saudis are Wahabbis and Salafists while the majority of Muslims are not.
How do the Saudis then represent majority of Muslims?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My perspective on the above claim is the Saudi Government is the caretaker of the Kaaba and Mecca where all [99%] Muslims focus their attention on at least 5 times a day and pilgrimage to. In this sense the Saudi Government represents the majority of Muslims.
O.M.G. Do you call that "critical" thinking?

Muslims do not pray 5 times a day because Saudis want them to do so. Muslims do not go for hajj because the Saudis want them to come to Saudi Arabia. If it had been because of Saudis, hardly anyone will go to Saudi Arabia except mostly non-muslims (to buy oil).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand Muslims are given a copy of the Hilali & Khan's translated Quran during the hajj or umra. Were you offered one or received one copy when you did your hajj?
Muslims are given an Arabic Qur'aan as a gift. Yes, I too was given one as a gift in 2000. I was offered a translation of Hilali & Khan but I already had one at home so I did not receive another one. I do not regard the words in brackets as the words of Allah. This is why my understanding is different than the Hilali & Khan's additional words from themselves. Out of all the translations, Hilali & Khan translation is one of the worst one for me. Too much of hadith is mixed in there, making it almost like a hadith book rather than the Book of Allah.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
All people have potential to do evil acts. The salaat helps train people not to do evil acts. Your "evil tendencies" is a different topic.
A prayer in any religion can train people not to do evil acts.
But it depends on what are the elements that are associated with the prayer.
In the case of the supposedly ritual prayers established by the ulema, the contents contain evil elements [1:7 and other verses recited] in association with the whole of the Quran. Note Allah did not state Al-Fatiha should be included in a prayer.
The continuous repetition is like brainwashing techniques especially when there are potentially evil elements.
Note the general rule, it is like to have an effect on appx. 20% [could be more] of Muslims who are born with an active evil tendency.

Quote:
They can't be attacking anyone when they are praying. Your point is useless to back up your argument.
In the midst of terror or other evil deeds, those evil prone Muslims can always stop for a while to do their prayers in some secured corner whilst taking turns as recommended in 4:102.

Quote:
[4.103] Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

Is "commitment" a timed ordinance?
One can expressed one's commitment in many ways including at scheduled time. A Muslim man who have 4 wives may made arrangement to have timed meeting [not for prayers] with each wife.
The point here is why should it involve the 5 ritual prayers and its content which was invented by the ulema rather than Allah's commands.

Quote:
I am presenting at least one personal experience whereas you present no personal experience. Where is your critical thinking? Even imagined 20% against 80% is not critical thinking but merely a moot point.

It's the other way round.

Your critical thinking bites the dust when you ignore my explanation about 1:7. Jews and Christians are not mentioned in 1:7.

All that your point proves is that 1.5 million misinterpret the verse 1:7. It proves nothing else as Jews and Christians aren't even mentioned in 1:7.

Your "critical" thinking is focused on negative rather than positive.

They are doing it in response to 20% of the non-muslims committing a range of evil and violence on Muslims. It is not because of 1:7, which is a prayer of a far greater number than 300 millions. Hed it been because of 1:7, billions would be do evil and violence on Jews and Christians. Where is your critical thinking?
Ignoring 80% (your figure) and making 20% (your figure) as your critical argument is a very poor argument.
One of my specialty and forte is critical thinking and problem solving techniques.
I am very conscious of the Principle of the Critical Few or Vital Few.

Quote:
The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the Law of the
Vital few
, or the principle of factor sparsity)[1] states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.
Note how this Law is applied in various aspects of Life;
  • 1 In economics
  • 2 In science
  • 3 In business
  • 4 In software
  • 5 In sports
  • 6 Occupational health and safety
  • 7 Other applications
  • 8 Mathematical notes
  • 9 Equality measures
  • 9.1 Gini coefficient and Hoover index
  • 9.2 Theil index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

I have great confidence in my critical thinking ability as I had taken numerous courses related to it and did extensive research on it.

There are tons of evils, violence and terror from the Muslims community and the first thing one need to apply is the Principle of the Critical Few, i.e. roughly the 20% of evil prone Muslims. From there we provide to investigate into the finer root causes.

Quote:
Wrath and astray are general words that can refer to any evil or misguided people before revelation of the Taurat (Torah) or post revelation of the Torah. Wrath of God on Noah's people is well known even in Jewish people. But you are not even thinking about that in your "critical" thinking.
If you read the Quran extensively and do the relevant statistic, the greatest weighting [based on critical thinking] on "wrath" is attributable to the Jews [apes, swine, fasad, etc.] and "astray" to Christian for corrupting their original revelation from Allah with sonship, trinity, crucifixion, etc.

Quote:
Had your "critical" argument here is of no use as Allah has spoken in favor of churches and synagogues along with mosques (in which God's name is remembered much 22:40). That means even the Jews and Christians present at the time of the revelation of the Qur'aan were going to Paradise. That's why Allah wanted the churches and the synagogues preserved even then. But you won't think that way because your thinking is not critical. It is focused only on the negative (minority) rather than positive (majority).
The most obvious is the present Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians. The Quran focus heavily on the fasad and zulm committed by the Jews and Christians of old to the extend of destroying them totally leaving evidence as a reminder and threat. Whatever good there is from the Muslims-of-old are insignificant as far as the Quran is concerned.

Quote:
How do the Saudis then represent majority of Muslims?

O.M.G. Do you call that "critical" thinking?

Muslims do not pray 5 times a day because Saudis want them to do so. Muslims do not go for hajj because the Saudis want them to come to Saudi Arabia. If it had been because of Saudis, hardly anyone will go to Saudi Arabia except mostly non-muslims (to buy oil).
Note I stated 'represent in that specific sense.'
I did not state the Saudi Government relation to Muslims is like the Pope/Vatican to Catholic.
I am not saying they have divine or political authority over all Muslims.
They represent to take care [as caretaker only] of the Kaaba for the majority of Muslims.
Note the Saudi King washing the Kaaba!



There is no for critical thinking here, just being more informed.


Quote:
Muslims are given an Arabic Qur'aan as a gift. Yes, I too was given one as a gift in 2000. I was offered a translation of Hilali & Khan but I already had one at home so I did not receive another one. I do not regard the words in brackets as the words of Allah. This is why my understanding is different than the Hilali & Khan's additional words from themselves. Out of all the translations, Hilali & Khan translation is one of the worst one for me. Too much of hadith is mixed in there, making it almost like a hadith book rather than the Book of Allah.
You and some may have the discretionary thinking power to distance those words in [bracket] in the Hilali-Khan Quran.
However imagine the majority of innocent Muslims [who do not think] who will take those words in [] with some kind of authority and are influenced by it.
If the majority of Muslims are sincere, they should stop the Saudi Government from distributing the Hilali-Khan Quran to all Muslims during the Hajj when they are very emotional then and vulnerable.

Another point is there is no one Muslim or others in the World who can judge Hilali-Khan translations are wrong. [Only Allah the final arbiter can] More so when it has a backing of the Saudi Government. Such factors will carry heavy weightage and influence on the evil prone Muslims to do their thing.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:58 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A prayer in any religion can train people not to do evil acts.
That's right. That's the reason for prayers at appointed times every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But it depends on what are the elements that are associated with the prayer.
There are no elements in assalaat that require a Muslim to go out after the prayer to kill peaceful people of any religion or of no religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the case of the supposedly ritual prayers established by the ulema, the contents contain evil elements [1:7 and other verses recited] in association with the whole of the Quran.
I recite, more than once, the whole of the Fatiha in every prayer. It hasn't made me do evil acts. Reason? There are no evil contents in it that can influence me to do evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Allah did not state Al-Fatiha should be included in a prayer.
Al Fatiha is the prayer. Without it, the prayer isn't complete. There is no other better prayer for one's Self than Al Fatiha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The continuous repetition is like brainwashing techniques especially when there are potentially evil elements.
That's what I have noticed from you for months; continuous repetition of "evil elements". It hasn't brainwashed me at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the general rule, it is like to have an effect on appx. 20% [could be more] of Muslims who are born with an active evil tendency.
It is a moot point when it hasn't had any evil effect on 80% (could be more) of Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the midst of terror or other evil deeds, those evil prone Muslims can always stop for a while to do their prayers in some secured corner whilst taking turns as recommended in 4:102.
You've gotten it totally wrong. They are not attacking anyone but in danger of being attacked. You do the reading but not the critical thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One can expressed one's commitment in many ways including at scheduled time.
Which one would then be the middle commitment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim man who have 4 wives may made arrangement to have timed meeting [not for prayers] with each wife.
Which meeting with each wife would be the middle meeting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point here is why should it involve the 5 ritual prayers and its content which was invented by the ulema rather than Allah's commands.
Al Fatiha hasn't been invented by the ulema but is from Allah. It was Allah who gave us "7 of the oft repeated". Ulema are not Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One of my specialty and forte is critical thinking and problem solving techniques.
I am sorry to say that from what I have read from you, you are not going to solve this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are tons of evils, violence and terror from the Muslims community and the first thing one need to apply is the Principle of the Critical Few, i.e. roughly the 20% of evil prone Muslims. From there we provide to investigate into the finer root causes.
When I gave you my example and critical personal experience, you rejected the "Principle of Critical Few". You do not know when to apply critical thinking; in case of Critical Few or in case of Critical Majority.

In your case, you are not apply Critical Point but Negative Point. You cannot balance the Whole using only the Negative actions and ignoring the Positive actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you read the Quran extensively and do the relevant statistic, the greatest weighting [based on critical thinking] on "wrath" is attributable to the Jews [apes, swine, fasad, etc.] and "astray" to Christian for corrupting their original revelation from Allah with sonship, trinity, crucifixion, etc.
Compared with what is said about the Jews in the Torah, the Qur'aan is quite polite to them. Once again, you are unable to balance your view about the Jews in the Torah and the Qur'aan. Read the Torah and come back to argue with me as to what had happened to all adult Jews who had left Egypt with Moses. Also, don't forget to tell me how many were put to sword in one day after worshiping the golden calf. This wasn't done on the order of Muhammad but on the order of Moses.

Don't forget to have critical thinking!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The most obvious is the present Torah and Injil had been corrupted by the Jews and Christians.
This is not from the Qur'aan. I have even given you the verse numbers in which the Qur'aan confirms the the Book "with them" at the time the Qur'aan was revealed. You keep ignoring it in your "critical" thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran focus heavily on the fasad and zulm committed by the Jews and Christians of old to the extend of destroying them totally leaving evidence as a reminder and threat.
Jews and Christians have never, in their history, been "destroyed" "totally". Where are you getting this false information from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whatever good there is from the Muslims-of-old are insignificant as far as the Quran is concerned.
That means you did not understand the first part of 1:7. That's due to the lack of critical thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If the majority of Muslims are sincere, they should stop the Saudi Government from distributing the Hilali-Khan Quran to all Muslims during the Hajj when they are very emotional then and vulnerable.
Another moot point! Six members of my family and more than hundred Muslims attending our local mosque have been to Mecca for Hajj. They were all emotional and vulnerable but none of them are terrorists killing Jews and Christians. Did you know that the Imam who recently went to Vatican to meet the Pope, has also been to Mecca for Hajj but never tried to kill the Pope? He too must have read Hillali translation as he is fluent in English.

All Hijaj get an Arabic Qur'aan. That is the real Qur'aan. Translations are not real Qur'aan but just near or approximate translations. Can you do some critical thinking why they are distributing translations if, as you had claimed, Arabs want everyone to say the formal prayer in Arabic only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Another point is there is no one Muslim or others in the World who can judge Hilali-Khan translations are wrong.
Why, if these Arabs want us all to pray in Arabic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
More so when it has a backing of the Saudi Government. Such factors will carry heavy weightage and influence on the evil prone Muslims to do their thing.
Nonsense!

Bin Laden (an Arab) did not need any translation. He could read Arabic quite well. It wasn't Hillali & Khan who had influenced him but the Western politicians.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's right. That's the reason for prayers at appointed times every day.

There are no elements in assalaat that require a Muslim to go out after the prayer to kill peaceful people of any religion or of no religion.

I recite, more than once, the whole of the Fatiha in every prayer. It hasn't made me do evil acts. Reason? There are no evil contents in it that can influence me to do evil.

Al Fatiha is the prayer. Without it, the prayer isn't complete. There is no other better prayer for one's Self than Al Fatiha.

That's what I have noticed from you for months; continuous repetition of "evil elements". It hasn't brainwashed me at all.

It is a moot point when it hasn't had any evil effect on 80% (could be more) of Muslims.

Which one would then be the middle commitment?

Which meeting with each wife would be the middle meeting?

Al Fatiha hasn't been invented by the ulema but is from Allah. It was Allah who gave us "7 of the oft repeated". Ulema are not Allah.

I am sorry to say that from what I have read from you, you are not going to solve this problem.

When I gave you my example and critical personal experience, you rejected the "Principle of Critical Few". You do not know when to apply critical thinking; in case of Critical Few or in case of Critical Majority.

In your case, you are not apply Critical Point but Negative Point. You cannot balance the Whole using only the Negative actions and ignoring the Positive actions.

Compared with what is said about the Jews in the Torah, the Qur'aan is quite polite to them. Once again, you are unable to balance your view about the Jews in the Torah and the Qur'aan. Read the Torah and come back to argue with me as to what had happened to all adult Jews who had left Egypt with Moses. Also, don't forget to tell me how many were put to sword in one day after worshiping the golden calf. This wasn't done on the order of Muhammad but on the order of Moses.

Don't forget to have critical thinking!

This is not from the Qur'aan. I have even given you the verse numbers in which the Qur'aan confirms the the Book "with them" at the time the Qur'aan was revealed. You keep ignoring it in your "critical" thinking.

Jews and Christians have never, in their history, been "destroyed" "totally". Where are you getting this false information from?

That means you did not understand the first part of 1:7. That's due to the lack of critical thinking.

Another moot point! Six members of my family and more than hundred Muslims attending our local mosque have been to Mecca for Hajj. They were all emotional and vulnerable but none of them are terrorists killing Jews and Christians. Did you know that the Imam who recently went to Vatican to meet the Pope, has also been to Mecca for Hajj but never tried to kill the Pope? He too must have read Hillali translation as he is fluent in English.

All Hijaj get an Arabic Qur'aan. That is the real Qur'aan. Translations are not real Qur'aan but just near or approximate translations. Can you do some critical thinking why they are distributing translations if, as you had claimed, Arabs want everyone to say the formal prayer in Arabic only?

Why, if these Arabs want us all to pray in Arabic?

Nonsense!

Bin Laden (an Arab) did not need any translation. He could read Arabic quite well. It wasn't Hillali & Khan who had influenced him but the Western politicians.
What you are doing above is not presenting your points based on critical thinking.

To understand what is Critical Thinking, refer to Critical-Thinking.org.
Defining Critical Thinking

What you are doing with each point I presented is merely messed it up either deliberately or due to ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
When I gave you my example and critical personal experience, you rejected the "Principle of Critical Few". You do not know when to apply critical thinking; in case of Critical Few or in case of Critical Majority.
In the general sense, The Principle of Critical Few is not a-critical-one, i.e. "You" as the only evidence within a population of 1,500,000 is something like a drop of water to the ocean. How can such an evidence be credible [in this case] especially there is so much emotional and psychological factors involved in the individual believer.

Re Al-Fatiha, there is no instruction from Allah in the Quran to include it in any ritual prayers.
I did not say Al-Fatiha [1:7] alone will influence the 20% of evil prone Muslims [not all] to evil but it combines with other evil laden verses and the partial evil ethos of Islam to trigger the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence and other crimes.

Quote:
You've gotten it totally wrong. They are not attacking anyone but in danger of being attacked. You do the reading but not the critical thinking.
4:102 provide a general approach to 'l-salata' while in the midst of war. So it can apply while they are on the offensive or defensive.

Quote:
Bin Laden (an Arab) did not need any translation. He could read Arabic quite well. It wasn't Hillali & Khan who had influenced him but the Western politicians.
This is another point of you messing up the issue.

The point is this;
The Quran in Arabic in general promote and incite hatred against the Jews and Christians.
There are many verses in the Quran that contribute to the hatred.
Chapter 1 is a like a summary of the whole message of the Quran.
1:7 is summary of hatred against the infidels, especially the Jews and Christians.
Not all Muslims will be influenced by 1:7 but some appx 20% will be triggered subliminally by it.
This is why Bin Laden and other Arabic reader of the Quran are influenced to commit evils and violence against Jews, Christians and infidels.
As for non-Arabic reader of the Quran, 1:7 will still influence them subconsciously.
The point is, the Hilali-Khan Quran with its emphasis in [brackets] is the additional catalyst that make the situation worse especially when it is distributed to all those who attended the hajj.

Quote:
Jews and Christians have never, in their history, been "destroyed" "totally". Where are you getting this false information from?
Here again you are messing up the point. Obviously I did not mean 100% forever else there would be no more Jews and Christians if you are thinking to such a ridiculous extreme. If this is a case of you trying to insult my intelligence, effectively you are doing that to yours.
7:4. How many a township have We destroyed! [HLK: ahlaknāhā] As a raid by night, or while they [infidels] slept at noon, Our terror came unto them [infidels].
17:17. How many generations [QRN: l-qurūni of old infidels] have we destroyed since Noah! And Allah sufficeth as knower and Beholder of the sins of His slaves.
Note my project is about 'themes' and 'sub-themes' thus at this present stage I am quite equip with most themes as supported by all the relevant verses.
In the case of the Muslims of old [Noah, Lot], all the non-Muslims [except Muslims] were destroyed because they disbelieved and sinned against Allah.

Quote:
That's what I have noticed from you for months; continuous repetition of "evil elements". It hasn't brainwashed me at all.
Here you are ignorant of human nature. In general the Bell-Curve applies to most human variables in a continuum. As such we will not find 100% of all human within one variable. Take human height, not all will be the same height. With your confirmation bias I am not expecting you to agree [objectively not brainwashed] with my views [thesis] at all.

My thesis is the evils, violence and crimes committed by SOME evil prone Muslims [not all] is due to the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran.
The Quran is full of words of evils directed at infidels, e.g. SWA - saa, asaa, musi', su', su'a, sayyi'ah, sayyi',
and it also effectively trigger evils in SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with an evil tendency.
Note there are loads of root sets that represent 'evil' in the Quran, ShRR - lasharra, BAS - fabi'sa' NKR - munkarat, KhBT - l-Khabaitha, etc.
All these root sets titillate the evil prone to orgasmic evils.
Compared with what is said about the Jews in the Torah, the Qur'aan is quite polite to them. Once again, you are unable to balance your view about the Jews in the Torah and the Qur'aan. Read the Torah and come back to argue with me as to what had happened to all adult Jews who had left Egypt with Moses. Also, don't forget to tell me how many were put to sword in one day after worshiping the golden calf. This wasn't done on the order of Muhammad but on the order of Moses.
This is a fallacy in critical thinking, i.e. the tu quoque fallacy and shifting the goal post. This forum is on Islam and not specifically on the Torah and NT.
My general view is all evils must be condemned regardless of where the sources are from.

Last edited by Continuum; 04-12-2017 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:34 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re Al-Fatiha, there is no instruction from Allah in the Quran to include it in any ritual prayers.
It is a prayer and nothing else. It serves no other purpose except as a prayer.

You have a double standard. Did Allah say "Jews and Christians" in 1:7?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I did not say Al-Fatiha [1:7] alone will influence the 20% of evil prone Muslims [not all] to evil but it combines with other evil laden verses and the partial evil ethos of Islam to trigger the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence and other crimes.
This is a moot point when 80% (your figure) prove you wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
4:102 provide a general approach to 'l-salata' while in the midst of war. So it can apply while they are on the offensive or defensive.
There is no mention of "offensive" in it but only of a "defensive" situation with danger of Muslims being attacked.

Your comment "general approach to 'I-salata" while in the midst of war" is a clear indication that you haven't a clue when this verse was revealed and in what situation.

I will let you do some research as to the situation at the time. Here is a clue: It was not a war situation but a situation of danger to Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran in Arabic in general promote and incite hatred against the Jews and Christians.
Here is the proof how the Qur'aan promoted "hatred" against the Jews:

[2.109] Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


Hatred?

I will let you quote the verses of the Qur'aan in which "hatred" is "promoted" and "incited" against "the Jews".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many verses in the Quran that contribute to the hatred.
You said "promote" and "incite hatred". Now it is just "contribute to hatred". Which one is true, if any?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Chapter 1 is a like a summary of the whole message of the Quran.
Jews and Christians aren't even mentioned in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1:7 is summary of hatred against the infidels, especially the Jews and Christians.
They aren't even mentioned in it!

First it was "Jews and Christians" in your imagination. This has now been extended to include "infidels" as well. Basically, it is imaginative promotion of hatred against the Qur'aan and Muslims. Your forte depends entirely on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not all Muslims will be influenced by 1:7 but some appx 20% will be triggered subliminally by it.
Moot point!

As 20% (your figure) of all humans are evil prone (your view), and 20% (your figure) of all Muslims are evil prone (your view), 1:7 has not increased the 20% figure. In other words, 1:7 has not influenced any Muslims to do evil or else there would have been more than 20% Muslims doing evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is why Bin Laden and other Arabic reader of the Quran are influenced to commit evils and violence against Jews, Christians and infidels.
Now you have moved away from the Hillali & Khan translation influencing evil against Jews and Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As for non-Arabic reader of the Quran, 1:7 will still influence them subconsciously.
In view of the vast majority of Muslims not being Arabs and Arabic speakers, and still are peaceful Muslims, your repetition technique isn't working on them. Sooner or later you will have to admit defeat against the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point is, the Hilali-Khan Quran with its emphasis in [brackets] is the additional catalyst that make the situation worse especially when it is distributed to all those who attended the hajj.
The point is the other way round. Almost all the hajjaj are peaceful people (I am one of them). You are Picking on totally the wrong people to express your view. 6 people from my family went for hajj and are all peaceful people. More than hundred from my local mosque have been for hajj and all are peaceful people. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here again you are messing up the point. Obviously I did not mean 100% forever else there would be no more Jews and Christians if you are thinking to such a ridiculous extreme. If this is a case of you trying to insult my intelligence, effectively you are doing that to yours.
You wrote it (totally destroyed); not I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
7:4. How many a township have We destroyed! [HLK: ahlaknāhā] As a raid by night, or while they [infidels] slept at noon, Our terror came unto them [infidels].
17:17. How many generations [QRN: l-qurūni of old infidels] have we destroyed since Noah! And Allah sufficeth as knower and Beholder of the sins of His slaves.
Note my project is about 'themes' and 'sub-themes' thus at this present stage I am quite equip with most themes as supported by all the relevant verses.
In the case of the Muslims of old [Noah, Lot], all the non-Muslims [except Muslims] were destroyed because they disbelieved and sinned against Allah.
You are changing your tune now. Here is what you had claimed:

Quote:
The Quran focus heavily on the fasad and zulm committed by the Jews and Christians of old to the extend of destroying them totally leaving evidence as a reminder and threat.
You had mentioned only "the Jews and Christians" and destroying them "totally".

It just goes to prove that you do not know what you are writing and what you are reading in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here you are ignorant of human nature. In general the Bell-Curve applies to most human variables in a continuum. As such we will not find 100% of all human within one variable. Take human height, not all will be the same height. With your confirmation bias I am not expecting you to agree [objectively not brainwashed] with my views [thesis] at all.
Try not to insult my human nature!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My thesis is the evils, violence and crimes committed by SOME evil prone Muslims [not all] is due to the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran.
The evidence to the contrary is stacked against your evil thesis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran is full of words of evils directed at infidels, e.g. SWA - saa, asaa, musi', su', su'a, sayyi'ah, sayyi',
and it also effectively trigger evils in SOME Muslims who are unfortunately born with an evil tendency.
That means you do not understand the Qur'aan and its message as a whole. You are only focusing on what you imagine to be the evil words without regard to the context.

[13.22] And those who are constant, seeking the pleasure of their Lord, and keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them secretly and openly and repel evil with good; as for those, they shall have the (happy) issue of the abode.

Here is what is said in the Qur'aan about the Jews and Christians (who were given the Book before the Qur'aan) who repel evil with good:

[28.54] These shall be granted their reward twice, because they are steadfast and they repel evil with good and spend out of what We have given them.

You are so blind to these verses in the Qur'aan when so eager to look other verses to support your evil thesis. As I said it in the past, the Qur'aan itself will refute your evil thesis to prove that it is nothing but promotion of evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note there are loads of root sets that represent 'evil' in the Quran, ShRR - lasharra, BAS - fabi'sa' NKR - munkarat, KhBT - l-Khabaitha, etc.
All these root sets titillate the evil prone to orgasmic evils.
You are looking for the root letters. You need to look for evil roots. Don't imagine "evil" and make a full time job looking for it in the wrong places.

Quote:
Compared with what is said about the Jews in the Torah, the Qur'aan is quite polite to them. Once again, you are unable to balance your view about the Jews in the Torah and the Qur'aan. Read the Torah and come back to argue with me as to what had happened to all adult Jews who had left Egypt with Moses. Also, don't forget to tell me how many were put to sword in one day after worshiping the golden calf. This wasn't done on the order of Muhammad but on the order of Moses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a fallacy in critical thinking, i.e. the tu quoque fallacy and shifting the goal post. This forum is on Islam and not specifically on the Torah and NT.
Not specifically but in relation to the Qur'aan, Muslims have to accept the revelation of the Torah to be the believers. Perhaps my point is not conducive to your argument against the Qur'aan. That's where your critically thinking bites the dust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My general view is all evils must be condemned regardless of where the sources are from.
Just condemning is not enough. It should be repelled. The first and the most important option is repelling it with good. Spread the good and the evil will be squeezed out.
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