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Old 04-13-2017, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is a prayer and nothing else. It serves no other purpose except as a prayer.

You have a double standard. Did Allah say "Jews and Christians" in 1:7?

This is a moot point when 80% (your figure) prove you wrong.

There is no mention of "offensive" in it but only of a "defensive" situation with danger of Muslims being attacked.

Your comment "general approach to 'I-salata" while in the midst of war" is a clear indication that you haven't a clue when this verse was revealed and in what situation.

I will let you do some research as to the situation at the time. Here is a clue: It was not a war situation but a situation of danger to Muslims.

Here is the proof how the Qur'aan promoted "hatred" against the Jews:

[2.109] Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


Hatred?

I will let you quote the verses of the Qur'aan in which "hatred" is "promoted" and "incited" against "the Jews".

You said "promote" and "incite hatred". Now it is just "contribute to hatred". Which one is true, if any?

Jews and Christians aren't even mentioned in it.

They aren't even mentioned in it!

First it was "Jews and Christians" in your imagination. This has now been extended to include "infidels" as well. Basically, it is imaginative promotion of hatred against the Qur'aan and Muslims. Your forte depends entirely on this.

Moot point!

As 20% (your figure) of all humans are evil prone (your view), and 20% (your figure) of all Muslims are evil prone (your view), 1:7 has not increased the 20% figure. In other words, 1:7 has not influenced any Muslims to do evil or else there would have been more than 20% Muslims doing evil.

Now you have moved away from the Hillali & Khan translation influencing evil against Jews and Christians.

In view of the vast majority of Muslims not being Arabs and Arabic speakers, and still are peaceful Muslims, your repetition technique isn't working on them. Sooner or later you will have to admit defeat against the Qur'aan.

The point is the other way round. Almost all the hajjaj are peaceful people (I am one of them). You are Picking on totally the wrong people to express your view. 6 people from my family went for hajj and are all peaceful people. More than hundred from my local mosque have been for hajj and all are peaceful people. You are barking up the wrong tree.

You wrote it (totally destroyed); not I.

You are changing your tune now. Here is what you had claimed:



You had mentioned only "the Jews and Christians" and destroying them "totally".

It just goes to prove that you do not know what you are writing and what you are reading in the Qur'aan.

Try not to insult my human nature!

The evidence to the contrary is stacked against your evil thesis.

That means you do not understand the Qur'aan and its message as a whole. You are only focusing on what you imagine to be the evil words without regard to the context.

[13.22] And those who are constant, seeking the pleasure of their Lord, and keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them secretly and openly and repel evil with good; as for those, they shall have the (happy) issue of the abode.

Here is what is said in the Qur'aan about the Jews and Christians (who were given the Book before the Qur'aan) who repel evil with good:

[28.54] These shall be granted their reward twice, because they are steadfast and they repel evil with good and spend out of what We have given them.

You are so blind to these verses in the Qur'aan when so eager to look other verses to support your evil thesis. As I said it in the past, the Qur'aan itself will refute your evil thesis to prove that it is nothing but promotion of evil.

You are looking for the root letters. You need to look for evil roots. Don't imagine "evil" and make a full time job looking for it in the wrong places.



Not specifically but in relation to the Qur'aan, Muslims have to accept the revelation of the Torah to be the believers. Perhaps my point is not conducive to your argument against the Qur'aan. That's where your critically thinking bites the dust.

Just condemning is not enough. It should be repelled. The first and the most important option is repelling it with good. Spread the good and the evil will be squeezed out.
You seem to be running out of solid point to counter my views so you are resorting to messing up the points and nit-picking.

One point is in a discussion forum like this, there are limitation to present what is 100% precise on what we have in mind.
This is why in Philosophy we have the Principle of Charity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

For example you simply jumped to conclusion despite my explanation;
What I was expressing about the Jews and Christians referred to the Stories of the Prophets and believers of old as told in the Quran. I am sure you are aware of them.
When I stated the Jews and Christians were "totally" destroyed, the reference is to the total of all those who disbelieved and sinned not ALL Jews that exists on Earth then. I gave examples of Lot, Noah, etc.
Despite my explanation, your excuse is I have changed my tune.

Many a times most people in a discussion like this will first present with a broad brush and if the other party do not agree, then, the other party can ask question and clarification into more details and precision.

The fact that you do not take into consideration the Principle of Charity in this case is a cheap way out.

I won't bother with the rest of your nit-pickings above.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:48 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You seem to be running out of solid point to counter my views so you are resorting to messing up the points and nit-picking.

One point is in a discussion forum like this, there are limitation to present what is 100% precise on what we have in mind.
This is why in Philosophy we have the Principle of Charity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

For example you simply jumped to conclusion despite my explanation;
What I was expressing about the Jews and Christians referred to the Stories of the Prophets and believers of old as told in the Quran. I am sure you are aware of them.
When I stated the Jews and Christians were "totally" destroyed, the reference is to the total of all those who disbelieved and sinned not ALL Jews that exists on Earth then. I gave examples of Lot, Noah, etc.
Despite my explanation, your excuse is I have changed my tune.

Many a times most people in a discussion like this will first present with a broad brush and if the other party do not agree, then, the other party can ask question and clarification into more details and precision.

The fact that you do not take into consideration the Principle of Charity in this case is a cheap way out.

I won't bother with the rest of your nit-pickings above.
You've done it again!

Neither Noah nor Lot was a Jew. They were not Jews. The word "Yehudi" means "Jew" (Yehudim = Jews). They were originally descendants of Yehuda (Judah) the fourth son of Jacob. As Yehudim came into existence long after Noah and Lot had died, you giving example of Noah and Lot as "Jews" or "Christians" is just useless croaking from a deep well.
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