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Old 04-07-2017, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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According to Aidid Safar's critique of the Salaat,
some believers are inadvertently giving instructions to Muhammad if they recite certain verses from the Quran during their daily 'prayers.'

Note the following;
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod....ritual-prayer/

What are your views or a critique of his views?

Quote:
The prayer starts with a recitation of a set of speech formulated2 by the religionists before beginning the compulsory recital of Al Fatiha (the first surah, consisting of seven verses).
Typically, this will be followed by a short surah from toward the end of the Reading. Surahs 111, 112, 113 and 114 are particular favourites as they are very short and generally considered the minimum (along with Al Fatiha) that a Muslim should be expected to memorise3.

The religionists say they are praying to God. Yet each of these last surahs begins with an instruction to the Prophet: ‘Qul!’ or ‘Say!’ followed by exactly what it was he was required to say. However these verses which begin with a direct instruction are habitually addressed to God in the Arab prayer ritual. For example:
Say!: He is God, the only one. The absolute God. He never begets, nor was He ever begotten. There is none equal to Him. (surah 111)
There are many verses in the Reading that start with an imperative addressing a second person commanding him to recite to a third person or persons. That is the nature of the Revelation. However, the religionists teach their followers to recite these orders back to God in their prayer ritual. In one of their favourite surahs for this purpose, they tell God:
Say!: O you disbelievers, I do not serve what you serve, nor are you serving what I am serving. I will never serve what you are serving, nor will you ever serve what I am serving. To you is your own way, and to me is my own way. (surah 109)
However, if they choose to recite surah 108 in their prayer, they will tell God:
We have given you many bounties. In appreciation, you shall serve your Lord and be charitable. Your enemy will henceforth be the loser. (surah 108)
Obviously, not all non-Arabs know what they are saying to God in their ritual prayers. Maybe there is some excuse. But even native Arabic-speaking Arabs including religionists and Arabic scholars say these things to God every day!
Another point of misleading guides from the ulema;

Quote:
At the end of any one particular set of units, you are to sit and send greetings to Prophet Abraham and Muhammad and their families (no need to wait for them to reply, however), then greet the ‘two angels sitting on both of your shoulders’ (again, no reply is expected).

Reading [Quran] clearly says:
You cannot be heard by those in the graves. (35:22)
Yet, the followers of the Arab religion the world over are greeting only the dead prophet Muhammad and their families five times a day! We are not supposed to make any distinction between the prophets4: but Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron, Zachariah, John (Yahya), and Jesus were somehow left out of this private club. How very rude.
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:09 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
According to Aidid Safar's critique of the Salaat,
some believers are inadvertently giving instructions to Muhammad if they recite certain verses from the Quran during their daily 'prayers.'

Note the following;
https://mentalbondageinthenameofgod....ritual-prayer/

What are your views or a critique of his views?



Another point of misleading guides from the ulema;
The article tells us something about the author:

Quote:
Born to a Muslim family, the author personally performed this ritual countless times throughout his life before he called it a day many years ago. I must remind the reader, it is vital that every utterance in the Arab prayer ritual be in Arabic. The English-speaking Muslims may not even say a simple phrase like, “Praise be to You my Lord” in English.
Total nonsense!

One can pray in English. Allah understand all languages. It's pathetic to claim that Abraham prayed only in Arabic and not in Hebrew language.

The Qur'aan tells us that our faith is the faith of Abraham. I will look stupid if I say that if our faith is the faith of Abraham and he prayed in Hebrew we too must pray in Hebrew language.

The truth of the matter is that Aidid Safar got fed up of doing some simple exercises and getting up early every morning. Basically, he became lazy (idle). These articles prove that he did not understand the Qur'aan properly.
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The article tells us something about the author:

Total nonsense!

One can pray in English. Allah understand all languages. It's pathetic to claim that Abraham prayed only in Arabic and not in Hebrew language.

The Qur'aan tells us that our faith is the faith of Abraham. I will look stupid if I say that if our faith is the faith of Abraham and he prayed in Hebrew we too must pray in Hebrew language.

The truth of the matter is that Aidid Safar got fed up of doing some simple exercises and getting up early every morning. Basically, he became lazy (idle). These articles prove that he did not understand the Qur'aan properly.
You have misunderstood the author's view.

What he implied is in the current expectations for the majority, the believers are supposed to pray in Arabic. This is why his book is centered on 'The Arab Conspiracy' where believers are expected to behave like Arabs in every aspects of their life and thus critical to pray in Arabic. This the main theme of his critique in his book.
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
The Qur'aan tells us that our faith is the faith of Abraham. I will look stupid if I say that if our faith is the faith of Abraham and he prayed in Hebrew we too must pray in Hebrew language.
This is the same argument that Aidid used to support why Salaat [SLW] is not ritual worshipping in fixed patterns and fixed times.

Allah did not command Abraham to salaat [SLW] in terms of fixed ritual worshiping in fixed patterns and fixed times. So why must the Arabs rigidly follow fixed ritual worshiping in fixed patterns and fixed times.

Quote:
The truth of the matter is that Aidid Safar got fed up of doing some simple exercises and getting up early every morning. Basically, he became lazy (idle). These articles prove that he did not understand the Qur'aan properly.
Truth of the Matter??
You had let your intellectual integrity slipped here by such loose speculations on your part. You did not make an attempt to understand his position but simply jumped to conclusion he was lazy [idle] in contrast of the reality he was busy spending years in studying the Quran to understand what is true Islam.

Earlier on Aidid stated he was blindly following Islam like a sheep from the Ulema's guidance.
From his book in the early chapter, Aidid stated he was enlightened to his new views of Islam after extensive reading and research on the Quran.

I say, Aidid Safar do understand the Quran sufficiently and in depth, but the difference is merely in your views and his. You as a slave of Allah is in no position to judge him and definitely by not jumping to conclusion instead of arguing his view point by point.

I do not agree with Aidid Safar totally, e.g. his interpretation of 3budu = serve. To me, 3budu is more than serving Allah and comprised a very extensive and comprehensive state of mind and accompanying actions.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:00 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is the same argument that Aidid used to support why Salaat [SLW] is not ritual worshipping in fixed patterns and fixed times.
Aidid was wrong in this argument. He couldn't understand the difference between salaat of the idol worshipers (whistling and clapping) and al-salaat of the believers at an appointed time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah did not command Abraham to salaat [SLW] in terms of fixed ritual worshiping in fixed patterns and fixed times. So why must the Arabs rigidly follow fixed ritual worshiping in fixed patterns and fixed times.
Now you have moved from the language in which al-salaat is done to patterns (which are not permanently "fixed").

As for the patterns and rituals, these are for ordinary discipline and not a must. What is a must is what is said from the heart. Aidid must have got fed up doing up and down exercises. People with weak eeman often do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Truth of the Matter??
You had let your intellectual integrity slipped here by such loose speculations on your part. You did not make an attempt to understand his position but simply jumped to conclusion he was lazy [idle] in contrast of the reality he was busy spending years in studying the Quran to understand what is true Islam.
I stand by my words. I am speaking from experience both in carrying out so-called rituals for more than half a century and studying the Qur'aan to understand it better. You won't understand the experience I am speaking from because you haven't had the experience that I have had. People like Aidid become Islam experts only after leaving Islam. It's a good business for them as they write books on Islam for the dummies.

The difference between two of us is that I studied the Qur'aan to understand it and he studied the Qur'aan to get out of what he thought was hard work of doing exercises 5 times a day and getting up early to pray and begin fasting for the day. He had to find some excuses to be able to do that. His excuses are quite poor. His excuses show me his ignorance about Islam and the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Earlier on Aidid stated he was blindly following Islam like a sheep from the Ulema's guidance.
They all say so after leaving Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From his book in the early chapter, Aidid stated he was enlightened to his new views of Islam after extensive reading and research on the Quran.
That is a lie. I know that because I too have studied the Qur'aan. I too was initially guided by my parents (never by any aalim). It was only after studying the Qur'aan that I were enlightened better about Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I say, Aidid Safar do understand the Quran sufficiently and in depth, but the difference is merely in your views and his. You as a slave of Allah is in no position to judge him and definitely by not jumping to conclusion instead of arguing his view point by point.
Any self-proclaimed expert on the Qur'aan who disregards any verse of the Qur'aan in expressing his views about the Qur'aan is telling lies that he has studied the Qur'aan in depth. Aidid Safar is no expert about the message of the Qur'aan. Even you have better knowledge about the Qur'aan than Aidid Safar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I do not agree with Aidid Safar totally, e.g. his interpretation of 3budu = serve. To me, 3budu is more than serving Allah and comprised a very extensive and comprehensive state of mind and accompanying actions.
You are correct to disagree with him. 3budu is complying with the purpose Allah had created human beings. It includes both believing (in mind) and action (physically carrying out the tasks for which human was created to be on the this earth as leading earthly being). Islam is the training ground to do just that in the best interests of humanity and the earthly living beings including the earthly environment.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
People like Aidid become Islam experts only after leaving Islam. It's a good business for them as they write books on Islam for the dummies.

They all say so after leaving Islam.
FYI, Aidid Safar is a Muslim, i.e. a Quran-Only Muslim like yourself and other Quranists.

I note even among the Quran-Only Muslims there are differences in views, e.g. Asif Khan, Rashad, Edip Yuksel [Code 19], the Submittters, the Quranists, and the likes do have different views.

The Quran-Only community should not condemn each other but put aside difference for reconciliation. I note Ashif Khan is very terrible in condemning other Quran-Only Muslims and the traditionalists.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:59 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
FYI, Aidid Safar is a Muslim, i.e. a Quran-Only Muslim like yourself and other Quranists.

I note even among the Quran-Only Muslims there are differences in views, e.g. Asif Khan, Rashad, Edip Yuksel [Code 19], the Submittters, the Quranists, and the likes do have different views.

The Quran-Only community should not condemn each other but put aside difference for reconciliation. I note Ashif Khan is very terrible in condemning other Quran-Only Muslims and the traditionalists.
Aidid Safar cannot be Qur'aan-only Muslim if he is disregarding any verse of the Qur'aan in his views.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Aidid Safar cannot be Qur'aan-only Muslim if he is disregarding any verse of the Qur'aan in his views.
Basically a Quran-Only Muslim is one who do not accept the Ahadith has any divine authority [via prophets and messengers] from Allah. As such technically he is a Quran-Only Muslim.
Again you are in no position to judge him on this. As long as he submit to and believe in Allah & Allah's basic message via the messenger, then he is technically a Muslim.

I don't see where Aidid Safar disregard verses from the Quran, he is merely having his views on various verses based on his research and analysis.
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Old 04-09-2017, 01:51 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Basically a Quran-Only Muslim is one who do not accept the Ahadith has any divine authority [via prophets and messengers] from Allah. As such technically he is a Quran-Only Muslim.
No. The Qur'aan only Muslim is not even mentioned in the Qur'aan. The technicality is created only by people. It is wrong term as a Muslim (Believer) must accept not only the Qur'aan but previous revelations such as Taurat and injil as well. Therefore, the "Quraan only" is technically a false term for any Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Again you are in no position to judge him on this. As long as he submit to and believe in Allah & Allah's basic message via the messenger, then he is technically a Muslim.
He has rejected parts of the message of the Qur'aan. Here is one example from his article:

Quote:
"Find a spot and make sure you face the stone idol in Mecca."
It is not stated in the Qur'aan to make sure we face "the stone idol in Mecca". No sane Muslim will say such a stupid thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't see where Aidid Safar disregard verses from the Quran, he is merely having his views on various verses based on his research and analysis.
You won't see it because you are not fully aware of ALL the verses of the Qur'aan. If you are, show me which verse he has disregarded when describing the direction we face in Assalaat?

Here is what he has said in his article on Assalaat:

Quote:
"These simplified instructions will enable anyone to complete the dance of the Arab prayer ritual.
Prayer is not dance.

Quote:
Born to a Muslim family, the author personally performed this ritual countless times throughout his life before he called it a day many years ago. I must remind the reader, it is vital that every utterance in the Arab prayer ritual be in Arabic. The English-speaking Muslims may not even say a simple phrase like, “Praise be to You my Lord” in English.
Totally wrong!

I can say my prayer in any language as Allah understands all languages.

Quote:
"Here, is a summary of the basic procedure for those who have never performed an Arab prayer ritual:
First, wash out your mouth with water, blow your nose, wash your face, your hands, your forehead, your ears, your neck, and your legs and then speak to God in Arabic and tell Him you are going to ritually pray to Him.
Is it speaking to God or dancing to God?
Also, is it washing your neck or wiping your neck?
The man doesn't know even a simple procedure. Has he read the Qur'aan? Certainly not!

Quote:
"Find a spot and make sure you face the stone idol in Mecca."
This is worse utterance than of a kafir.

Quote:
"Then, stand properly with the hands folded on your belly. Various sects have their own specific ways of placing the hands, and the tutored eye can tell a lot about your doctrine just by looking at the way you hold this position, though variations abound throughout the mosques of the world."
He is ignoring the verse in the Qur'aan that you can pray walking or even on a horseback without folding your arms. The man is just trying to nick-pick.

Quote:
"Then pronounce ‘Allah hu akbar’.1 The word akbar means bigger. So it is: ‘God is bigger’. (Interestingly, the phrase Allah hu akbar is not found anywhere in the Reading). Then recite some Arabic verses (which you may or may not comprehend)."
His ignorance about the verses of the Qur'aan is complete with this utterance. When a Muslim says "Allahu Akbar", he is magnifying greatness of Allah. This greatness is not matched by anyone or anything. This instruction is in the Qur'aan but this guy is not aware of it. He has ignored, rejected and disregarded the verse in which is this instruction.

The guy is fake. He hasn't studied the Qur'aan or else he won't make such errors.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. The Qur'aan only Muslim is not even mentioned in the Qur'aan. The technicality is created only by people. It is wrong term as a Muslim (Believer) must accept not only the Qur'aan but previous revelations such as Taurat and injil as well. Therefore, the "Quraan only" is technically a false term for any Muslim.
"Quran-Only" is definitely not from the Quran, but it definitely represent what Allah main intention in the Quran, i.e. the Muslim's duty is only to obey the message of Allah in the Quran.
I could phrase it as 'obeying-Allah's-message-only' Muslims.
This will apply also to the Muslims-of-old who are supposed to obey the message in the Original revealed Taurat and Injil.
However note whatever is the present Taurat and Injil are technically corrupted by the Jews and Christians over time and circumstances, this rejected by the message within Quran.

Quran-Only-Muslims is a term to differentiate Quran+Ahadith Muslims.

There is no need to nick-pick on this because it is too tedious to write out the full context every time we discuss about the concept of Quran-Only-Muslims.

Quote:
He has rejected parts of the message of the Qur'aan. Here is one example from his article:
Quote:
"Find a spot and make sure you face the stone idol in Mecca."
It is not stated in the Qur'aan to make sure we face "the stone idol in Mecca". No sane Muslim will say such a stupid thing.
I am very certain he did agree to the above.
Aidid is condemning those who pray 5 times a day facing the stone idol in Mecca and stated this is a wrong interpretation by the ulema.
Point is you did not read his views properly.


Quote:
You won't see it because you are not fully aware of ALL the verses of the Qur'aan. If you are, show me which verse he has disregarded when describing the direction we face in Assalaat?

Here is what he has said in his article on Assalaat:

Quote:
"These simplified instructions will enable anyone to complete the dance of the Arab prayer ritual.
Prayer is not dance.
Btw, you are the one who stated Aidid disregarded verses from the Quran. I am asking you me to show me the evidence. So you have to show the evidence not me.

Note Aidid was being sarcastic here to associate prayer as a 'dance' metaphorically not literally. 'Dance' in this case mean the ulema are playing around with words to scam the masses.

The rest of your points are based on a significant misunderstanding of Aidid's book so your response is way off point.

If you read Aidid's book properly he presented his arguments very systematically, logically and generally I agree with his points, except some. Point is the ulema [most] may have substantial reading of the Quran but due to their evil proneness [& confirmation bias] they 'twist' and 'dance' with the interpretations of the Quran to suit their corrupted interests to scam the masses.
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