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Old 04-09-2017, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 2,625,322 times
Reputation: 481

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Quote:
Therefore, those who perform “سجدہ” on the earth like we do in the prayers (Namaz) they are in fact committing “SHIRK” of prostrating the earth deity of polytheist pagans.

Thus, in the light of these verses “وَالنَّجْمُ وَالشَّجَرُ يَسْجُدَانِ” (55:6), وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ (13:15), ” وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْض” (13:15), “وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِن دَآبَّةٍ وَالْمَلَآئِكَةُ وَهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ” (16:49), “أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ ” (22:18), “وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ” (84:21), “وَادْخُلُواْ الْبَابَ سُجَّدًا” (7:161), “وَاسْجُدْ وَاقْتَرِبْ (96:19)” and so many other verses of the Quran together with the research in the classical Arabic literature and the ancient Arabic dictionaries
we have reached to the conclusion that the Arabic/Quranic word “سجد” and its derivatives such as “سجدہ” do not hold the meaning of the traditional prostration of falling down the earth on forehead or kneel down on forehead [sadja]
but in fact the correct meaning of Arabic/Quranic word “سجدہ” is “obeying, following, turning and inclining”.
If this inclination and obedience go to something/someone else other than Allah in following someone else’s directions except Allah it is known as “سجد الحرام”, which is performed in “المسجد الحرام” facing towards the meteorite black stone, foot impression idol and towards the stone walls of the ex-storeroom of idols, or in the masjid facing towards the direction of the pagan shrine Kaaba and in the rest of the temples of other religions, and anywhere on the ground.
For detail argument to the above, read the following article;
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sajda...mp-reader-card

Does any one has any counter views to the above?

 
Old 04-09-2017, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,639 posts, read 14,902 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Therefore, those who perform “سجدہ” on the earth like we do in the prayers (Namaz) they are in fact committing “SHIRK” of prostrating the earth deity of polytheist pagans.
This is laughable. Abraham did it. Moses did it. Aaron did it and Jesus did it long before Muhammad did it and we are doing it.

Did Moses and Jesus come to the Ka'aba to do that?

Quote:
Thus, in the light of these verses “وَالنَّجْمُ وَالشَّجَرُ يَسْجُدَانِ” (55:6), وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ (13:15), ” وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْض” (13:15), “وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِن دَآبَّةٍ وَالْمَلَآئِكَةُ وَهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ” (16:49), “أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ ” (22:18), “وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ” (84:21), “وَادْخُلُواْ الْبَابَ سُجَّدًا” (7:161), “وَاسْجُدْ وَاقْتَرِبْ (96:19)” and so many other verses of the Quran together with the research in the classical Arabic literature and the ancient Arabic dictionaries
we have reached to the conclusion that the Arabic/Quranic word “سجد” and its derivatives such as “سجدہ” do not hold the meaning of the traditional prostration of falling down the earth on forehead or kneel down on forehead [sadja] but in fact the correct meaning of Arabic/Quranic word “سجدہ” is “obeying, following, turning and inclining”.
What a load of nonsense!

One only has to look at these words, "obeying", "following", "turning and "inclining" with their root, to see how absurd the suggestion is.

Quote:
"If this inclination and obedience go to something/someone else other than Allah in following someone else’s directions except Allah it is known as “سجد الحرام”, which is performed in “المسجد الحرام” facing towards the meteorite black stone, foot impression idol and towards the stone walls of the ex-storeroom of idols, or in the masjid facing towards the direction of the pagan shrine Kaaba and in the rest of the temples of other religions, and anywhere on the ground.
How stupid this suggestion is when none of the other masajid are called “المسجد الحرام” even though the same sajda is done in them too.

Reality of the only one masjid on earth being called “المسجد الحرام” is that certain acts that are halal at any other place are haram (forbidden) in the vicinity of this one masjid. Therefore, “المسجد الحرام” does not mean a masjid in which haram sajda is done.

By the way, this brings me to another absurd argument of words having the same or similar meaning with the root system. Haram حرام, Harm حرم and harim حريم (English harem) have the same root. One of them means "forbidden", the other "sacred" and the third a house in which several women are kept to serve one man.

I am surprised that the author did not follow the root towards the third meaning.
 
Old 04-09-2017, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 2,625,322 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is laughable. Abraham did it. Moses did it. Aaron did it and Jesus did it long before Muhammad did it and we are doing it.

Did Moses and Jesus come to the Ka'aba to do that?
Did Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Jesus do the 5 obligatory prayers at fixed times?


Quote:
What a load of nonsense!

One only has to look at these words, "obeying", "following", "turning and "inclining" with their root, to see how absurd the suggestion is.
The above have different roots.
But their contexts can be reconciled with the same proto-root of Sad-Laam.

Note Khayr-KhYR, Mar'uf-3RF, barra-BRR, tayyibina-TYB, and the likes has different roots but they collectively can be classed under hilm-KLM or ihsan [HSN] as good deeds.

Quote:
How stupid this suggestion is when none of the other masajid are called “المسجد الحرام” even though the same sajda is done in them too.

Reality of the only one masjid on earth being called “المسجد الحرام” is that certain acts that are halal at any other place are haram (forbidden) in the vicinity of this one masjid. Therefore, “المسجد الحرام” does not mean a masjid in which haram sajda is done.

By the way, this brings me to another absurd argument of words having the same or similar meaning with the root system. Haram حرام, Harm حرم and harim حريم (English harem) have the same root. One of them means "forbidden", the other "sacred" and the third a house in which several women are kept to serve one man.

I am surprised that the author did not follow the root towards the third meaning.
You seem to have a problem with the root systems and its characteristics. Note,

1. Each root X-X-X may represent a different set or family of meanings.
For example in the root K-F-R we have different set or family of meanings;
a. ungrateful - disbelievers, kafir, kafara, kuffar, and the likes.
b. absolved - kaffir, kaffara
c. camphor - kafur
d. rejected - kufran

As you can see the root KFR is used for 4 different sets of family of meanings which are distinctly different.
This is because some people did not follow the basic rule or they have run out of trilateral roots so a duplication is necessary.
This is the weakness of the root system if people do not follow the rules or when the rule cannot be followed absolutely.

2. Different roots and its family of words are synonymous;
As stated above, Khayr-KhYR, Mar'uf-3RF, barra-BRR, tayyibina-TYB, and the likes has different roots but they collectively can be classed under hilm-KLM or ihsan [HSN] as good deeds.

When referencing to the root system, one must take note of the above characteristics.


Thus whenever one deal with a root one must first refer to the context the word is used.
Note Arabic meanings and words are constructed on a root-based system, therefore the root basis and its principles cannot be ignored. Of course variations [due to various reason] from its norm must be taken into consideration.
 
Old 04-10-2017, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,639 posts, read 14,902 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Did Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Jesus do the 5 obligatory prayers at fixed times?
They all did sajda (prostration) to Allah. Whether they did one prayer, 6 prayers or 9 prayers, they did prostration. The question was raised on prostration pagan fashion. Prostration is not pagan fashion but done by the prophets and messengers of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above have different roots.
But their contexts can be reconciled with the same proto-root of Sad-Laam.

Note Khayr-KhYR, Mar'uf-3RF, barra-BRR, tayyibina-TYB, and the likes has different roots but they collectively can be classed under hilm-KLM or ihsan [HSN] as good deeds.

You seem to have a problem with the root systems and its characteristics. Note,

1. Each root X-X-X may represent a different set or family of meanings.
For example in the root K-F-R we have different set or family of meanings;
a. ungrateful - disbelievers, kafir, kafara, kuffar, and the likes.
b. absolved - kaffir, kaffara
c. camphor - kafur
d. rejected - kufran

As you can see the root KFR is used for 4 different sets of family of meanings which are distinctly different.
This is because some people did not follow the basic rule or they have run out of trilateral roots so a duplication is necessary.
This is the weakness of the root system if people do not follow the rules or when the rule cannot be followed absolutely.
The point to note is that the same root does not mean the same meaning and many roots do not mean one root. Arguing on root system for meanings is pointless. It can blow your argument totally of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
2. Different roots and its family of words are synonymous;
As stated above, Khayr-KhYR, Mar'uf-3RF, barra-BRR, tayyibina-TYB, and the likes has different roots but they collectively can be classed under hilm-KLM or ihsan [HSN] as good deeds.

When referencing to the root system, one must take note of the above characteristics.
One can do all kind of mental gymnastics to prove one's knowledge that may be nothing but ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus whenever one deal with a root one must first refer to the context the word is used.
When one deals with assalaat as "commitment", it must be noted that the commitment comes as commitments at different appointed times in a day. Friday commitment is very short. After this commitment, you can go and do other daily commitments. That of course means other than assalaat is also commitment. Even sleeping is a commitment. I now need to do some gardening prayer (read commitment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note Arabic meanings and words are constructed on a root-based system, therefore the root basis and its principles cannot be ignored. Of course variations [due to various reason] from its norm must be taken into consideration.
Yes, that is certainly a disclaimer. It had to come in the end.

Now to some gardening commitment! Perhaps Aidid has never done any gardening commitment. He wants others to grow for him with the help of stone idols. I have quite a few rocks in my garden if he wants to face towards my rockery.
 
Old 04-10-2017, 04:21 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,591 posts, read 15,530,589 times
Reputation: 10829
This thread is closed. The opening post contains Arabic without a corresponding English translation, making the entire thread unintelligible to a person who knows no Arabic. This illustrates precisely why the use of Arabic must be very carefully done, including translations, so that the members of City-Data who know only English (the official language for use on these forums) can understand and participate in the discussions.
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