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Old 06-01-2017, 06:22 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
What bothers me is that most belief systems, including Islam and Mormonism, are very strict about the elements that make them unique.
In this forum, I can confirm something only about Islam. Muslims do not believe that Islam is unique belief system. They believe that Islam (Submission to God = obeying God) is the central core of Judaism and Christianity too. It began with the command to Adam from God that he had to obey. This carried on from Abraham through to Bani Israel pre-Sinai and post-Sinai Israelites. Jesus also preached to keep the commandments and so did Muhammad.

[21.25] And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me.

Therefore, the core belief in the Qur'aan about One God and obeying Him is the same in Islam as preached by the previous messengers and prophets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
If you want to be a Mormon, you can't just decide Joseph Smith was "kind of a nut and a bit of a con man, but he had some really good ideas." Ditto for Muhammad if you want to be a Muslim.
In case of Muhammad, all one has to do is believe that the message from God he had delivered was from God. If one does that, he is a believer. A Muslim is someone who practically obeys commands from God and follows the guidance in the message. He is Muslim and not Muhammadan, he is in Islam and not in Muhammadanism. The religion is not from a man but from God.

Whatever kind of man Muhammad was is between him and God. Only God can pass any judgment on him. Our main concern is whether to believe the message is from God or not. I, of course, do believe that the message of the Qur'aan that Muhammad delivered was sent by God. Muhammad's only duty was to deliver the message word by word as it was revealed to him. It was not his duty to deliver his own message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
A Muslim is perfectly willing to discuss "common ground" so long as you understand that any compromise is going to be on your part.
Would a Christian be compromising if he said that God is One?

If a Christian and a Muslim said that God is One then they have a common ground. If a Muslim said to a Christian that your God and our God is the same, is he compromising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
You will be expressing only great respect, if not outright agreement with, the Quran and Muhammad or the discussion is going nowhere.
If a Christian does not believe that Muhammad was a messenger and a Muslim does believe that Jesus was a messenger, which of them is compromising?

If a Muslim says that what Jesus had preached was message from God, and a Christian says that Muhammad had not delivered any message from God, which one is compromising?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
In reality, there is essentially no common ground between a Christian and a Muslim is regard to metaphysical truths.
Common ground between the two has been explained above. The rest of belief system can be extended to any limit and differ even between Christian and Christian or between Muslim and Muslim. That is another subject than the "common ground".

Last edited by Khalif; 06-01-2017 at 06:32 AM..
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,314 times
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This is a Muslim forum, thank you for allowing this discussion. I did not Intend to talk about Christianity and other religions, but thank you for allowing it. I think it is sad that people can't own dogs as pets in Iran. Their are a lot of peculiarities that I think are odd or wrong in Muslim countries. That said, I also think it is sad that abortion is always an option in Christian majority America.

Back to Islamic Theology:

I think I'm one of the few people that believes Abraham sacrificed both Isaac and Ishmael at different times.

My Christian Hope for myself:


I believe that Jesus is the Bright Morning Star, Lion of Judah, Lamb of God, Son of Man, and the Lord God the Almighty. I hope someday, that Jesus will call me his son, and I will sit upon his lap, as he sits on his glorious throne. I am a child of Jesus Christ. Jesus is both the father, and the son of man. And, his eternal Father and my eternal Father is even Greater than both me and Lord Jesus.

I believe in the Book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. I believe in the Book of Mormon. I believe in the bible. I believe in the Quran, I believe anyone claiming the truth, until proven otherwise.

Some here might say I'm not Christian. But, I still believe Jesus is God. I believe that truth alone shall triumph!

Perhaps the Truth is just a lie to protect the innocent. If that is the case, I will fight the facts!
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Old 06-02-2017, 02:03 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
This is a Muslim forum, thank you for allowing this discussion. I did not Intend to talk about Christianity and other religions, but thank you for allowing it.
Although we discuss Islam only in this forum, as Jesus and the message from God that he had delivered (Injeel) is also believed by Muslims in Islam, this message can be discussed as part of Islam. What we can't do in this forum is discuss Christianity outside the context of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I think it is sad that people can't own dogs as pets in Iran. Their are a lot of peculiarities that I think are odd or wrong in Muslim countries.
Dogs are kept by many Muslims (we have too in a Muslim country) but there is always a dedicated area of their own for them instead of making them sleep in your own bed or allowing them in kitchen area. They could be your better friends than some humans are these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Back to Islamic Theology:

I think I'm one of the few people that believes Abraham sacrificed both Isaac and Ishmael at different times.
According to the Bible, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his "only son". Isaac was never his only son at any time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
My Christian Hope for myself:

I believe that Jesus is the Bright Morning Star, Lion of Judah, Lamb of God, Son of Man, and the Lord God the Almighty.
The first four are allegories and people do interpret them differently. These should not be taken as literal. The fifth one cannot be true unless you give up the core belief that Lord God Almighty is One. Jesus never claimed to be so. The Lord God Almighty is everliving God and will not die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I hope someday, that Jesus will call me his son, and I will sit upon his lap, as he sits on his glorious throne. I am a child of Jesus Christ. Jesus is both the father, and the son of man. And, his eternal Father and my eternal Father is even Greater than both me and Lord Jesus.
That means there is someone even greater than your Almighty God. Is that what you believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I believe in the Book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. I believe in the Book of Mormon. I believe in the bible. I believe in the Quran, I believe anyone claiming the truth, until proven otherwise.
That does not make you unbeliever. An unbeliever is someone who denies/rejects any revelation from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Some here might say I'm not Christian. But, I still believe Jesus is God. I believe that truth alone shall triumph!
According to the Qur'aan, a revelation from God, Jesus is not God. Do you accept it or reject it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Perhaps the Truth is just a lie to protect the innocent.
How can a lie be Truth and how can it protect the innocent?

I see no logic in a lie being Truth if it means an innocent is not protected.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,314 times
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If someone were to lie in communist China about having a second child to protect them from the old One Child Policy, I don't see that as a lie. When you lie to save someone's life, I don't see it as a lie. Lying to save an innocent life is never a lie.

Like in the Quran, maybe God spared Jesus. That does not mean that the Story of Jesus' crucifixion is a lie. Lying to save the innocent, is never a lie. I call it truth.

Last edited by AlwaysByChance; 06-02-2017 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,314 times
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The reason the bible says "only son" is because Sarah in the bible, did not want Ishmael to inherit Abrahams blessings. Sarah also did not like ishmaels' mother Hagar, so, even though Ishmael was the first borne, Sarah made it so that the second born, Isaac was the primary inheritor of Abrahams' blessing. That is why Ishmael ended up in Mecca. Ishmael did not inherit the Holy Land promised to Abraham, even though he was the first borne. In a sense, Isaac became his only son, due to inheritance.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,314 times
Reputation: 113
Lying to save the innocent is never a lie. In other words, Saying something that is unfactual, to protect another's life, can become true, if it is never known to be unfactual. Thus, something unfactual can be the truth, if the deeper facts are never known. The innocent hide behind truth, not the facts. Truth can evade the facts, if the deeper facts are never known, and remain hidden.
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:40 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Some here might say I'm not Christian. But, I still believe Jesus is God. I believe that truth alone shall triumph!

Perhaps the Truth is just a lie to protect the innocent. If that is the case, I will fight the facts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How can a lie be Truth and how can it protect the innocent?

I see no logic in a lie being Truth if it means an innocent is not protected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Like in the Quran, maybe God spared Jesus. That does not mean that the Story of Jesus' crucifixion is a lie. Lying to save the innocent, is never a lie. I call it truth.
Are you now beginning to think that the story of crucifixion is a lie to spare Jesus but it only appeared to the people as truth?
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:56 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Lying to save the innocent is never a lie. In other words, Saying something that is unfactual, to protect another's life, can become true, if it is never known to be unfactual. Thus, something unfactual can be the truth, if the deeper facts are never known. The innocent hide behind truth, not the facts. Truth can evade the facts, if the deeper facts are never known, and remain hidden.
A lie can never remain hidden. Truth will always prevail eventually.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A lie can never remain hidden. Truth will always prevail eventually.
Exactly!
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:35 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The reason the bible says "only son" is because Sarah in the bible, did not want Ishmael to inherit Abrahams blessings.
But in the bible it wasn't Sarah who was supposed to have said "your only son" but it is presented in the bible that God had said so. God will not lie that Isaac was "the only son" of Abraham at the time of near sacrifice event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Sarah also did not like ishmaels' mother Hagar, so, even though Ishmael was the first borne, Sarah made it so that the second born, Isaac was the primary inheritor of Abrahams' blessing.
Sarah wasn't God and could not deny the right of the first born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
That is why Ishmael ended up in Mecca. Ishmael did not inherit the Holy Land promised to Abraham, even though he was the first borne.
Here you are not saying that Ishmael did not inherit blessings of Abraham but only the land. Land is material inheritance.

If you are talking about the land as inheritance then Ishmael, as the first born, inherited double that of the second born.

Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other unloved, and both the loved and the unloved have borne him sons, if the firstborn son belongs to the unloved, then it shall be in the day he wills what he has to his sons, he cannot make the son of the loved the firstborn before the son of the unloved, who is the firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn."


The land promised to Abraham (Genesis 15:18) was from the river (or wadi) of Egypt to the the great river the Euphrates (in present Iraq). This land has never been possessed by descendants of Isaac but only by the descendants of Ishmael. You can't change the facts on the ground and the rightful inheritance of Ishmael.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
In a sense, Isaac became his only son, due to inheritance.
Material inheritance and whether one is the first born or the second born is due to the fact and order of birth. Inheritance does not decide who is the first born or the second born. Your or Sarah's logic about material inheritance in this case is based on greed.

As for the inheritance of blessings, it has nothing to do with genealogy or order of birth but only on one's obedience to God.

[Qur'aan 2.124] And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of people. Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

Last edited by Khalif; 06-02-2017 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: promise to Abraham according to the Qur'aan
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