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Old 06-02-2017, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,272 times
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God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." Genesis 22:2

Isaac was the son he loved, Ishmael was not! This is because Isaac was the son of his beloved wife Sarah. God agreed with Sarah.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,272 times
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12But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. 13"And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant." 14So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. - Genesis 21:13

Abraham did not hate his son Ishmael, but he did not love him the way he loved Isaac.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,272 times
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Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

Abraham helped Ishmael set up the Kaaba.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:08 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." Genesis 22:2

Isaac was the son he loved, Ishmael was not! This is because Isaac was the son of his beloved wife Sarah. God agreed with Sarah.
Where does it say that Abraham did not love Ishmael when he was his only son for 13 years?

Further, it does not say that Isaac was the only son Abraham loved and not Ishmael. It says, (1) "your only son" and (2) "whom you love". It is natural that Abraham would love Isaac too but Isaac was never his "only son" at any time but Ishmael. Therefore, it was Ishmael who was the ever the "only son" of Abraham and not Isaac. You only have go a little further in the same chapter to know this is the case.

Genesis 22:10-12
Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Here, as you can see, it is the "only son". The son who was the "only son" at any time was Ishmael and never Isaac.

This is again confirmed in the following passage:

Genesis 22:15-19
Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba.

You shouldn't just read the bible or the Qur'aan but try to study them. If you study them, you will find the truth and also find any holes in the re-written bible after the captivity.

For example:

(1) It would be a complete charade of Isaac's sacrifice if Abraham was commanded to sacrifice him and also promised Isaac's descendants would be as many as the stars and that the holy land was given to his descendants through Isaac.

(2) After the near sacrifice event, Abraham had returned with his only son to where Ishmael's mother was rather than where Isaac's mother was.

(3) When Abraham and Sarah learnt that Sarah was going to bear a son (Isaac), Ishmael and his mother were not there but had already been banished a long time ago. They were living somewhere else on their own and Abraham knew where they were because he had left them there in the wilderness.

(4) Abraham was given two good news. One of his descendant coming from his own loin when he had no children at all and the second when he had Ishmael but of another son through Sarah after Ishmael's near sacrifice event. You can see it even in Genesis if you study carefully.

All this study will show you that the word "Isaac" in Genesis 22:2 is a deliberate addition.

Ishmael was the "only son" of Abraham for several years before Isaac was born. The sacrifice event fits in case of Ishmael only and not in case of Isaac.

To know more about this, you need to study the sequence when Abraham was promised the land (from Egypt to the river Euphrates) for the first time, when descendant from his own loin was promised, where were Hagar and Ishmael when the news of Isaac to come was given to Abraham and Sarah, and when the sacrifice event took place in sequence of all these events.

The Qur'aan gives the correct sequence of first good news, the sacrifice event, and another good news of Isaac's birth after the event of near sacrifice of Ishmael.

The way the story is told in the Genesis, written by scribes after the captivity, it does not come together as credible even apart from Isaac being written as the "only son" of Abraham at the time. Angels in Genesis eat roasted calf in Genesis but they do not eat in the Qur'aan. Account in the Qur'aan is from God but the account in Genesis is mostly from the scribes. Allah knows that the angels do not eat material things like roasted calf.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:26 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
12But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. 13"And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant." 14So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. - Genesis 21:13
And when did God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? After Abraham being told that his descendant shall be name through Isaac, the only son, or before that?

The only way Abraham's descendants could be named through Isaac was if the sacrifice was of Ishmael.

In the Qur'aan, the good news of birth of Isaac was given to Abraham after the sacrifice event.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

Abraham helped Ishmael set up the Kaaba.
Yes, they had raised the foundations of the Ka'aba.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,272 times
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The Torah, like the Quran, is without error. Many Muslims don't like that God doesn't consider Ishmael to be Abrahams' son.

Isaac was his favorite son, his only son, in Gods eyes. Isaac was indeed the second sacrafice some time after Ishmael.

The sacrifice of Ishmael is only in the Quran.
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:37 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The Torah, like the Quran, is without error.
The Torah, the original Torah, the Torah that was revealed by God to Moses and mentioned in the Qur'aan that Muslims accept that it was from God, was without error. Most of the current Torah also includes a lot of truths that are confirmed by the Qur'aan. But the current Torah cannot be regarded as the original word by word from God because there are words in there that are not from God but are from the human scribes. For example:

Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

Keep in mid that the original written Torah was lost during the Babylonian attack and captivity of the Jewish people. They had to re-write the Torah from whatever they had in their memory during and after the return.

Would you say that Deuteronomy 34 was revealed to Moses as it is, word by word, or written after the death of Moses by a scribe after the captivity? The passage 34:5-6 cannot be from God to Moses as Moses had died by then as is indicated in it and the scribe is telling you that his grave was not known to "to this day" when he was writing it. Not only this is an addition to what was revealed to Moses but the word "Isaac" in Genesis 22:2 is an addition and an error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Many Muslims don't like that God doesn't consider Ishmael to be Abrahams' son.
I am not one of those Muslims.

I like that God does consider Ishmael as Abraham's son. Even the scribe(s) who wrote Genesis 16:15, 17:23, 17:25 and 17:26 admitted that Ishmael was Abraham's son. Even the covenant of circumcision was established, signed and sealed with Abraham's and his son Ishmael's blood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Isaac was his favorite son, his only son, in Gods eyes. Isaac was indeed the second sacrafice some time after Ishmael.
Where does it say so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The sacrifice of Ishmael is only in the Quran.
Actually this is where you find the Islamic theology to be complex when it isn't complex at all. Ishmael isn't mentioned by name nor is Isaac mentioned in the Qur'aan for the sacrifice event. No name is mentioned because it does not matter to the Islamic faith as to which son. Islamic theology is so simple that even if Ishmael was never the subject of near sacrifice and only Isaac was the subject of near sacrifice, it will make no difference to the Islamic faith. Muslims regard even Isaac as one of their prophets.

[37.112] And We gave him the good news of Isaac, a prophet among the good ones.

[37.113] And We showered Our blessings on him and on Isaac; and of their offspring are the doers of good, and
(also) those who are clearly unjust to their own souls.
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Old 06-03-2017, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,272 times
Reputation: 113
Man is allowed to say that Ishmael was Abrahams' biological son. God, on the otherhand, Says that Ishmael lost his sonship.

9Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. 10Therefore she said to Abraham, "Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac."
(Genesis 21:10-12).
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:28 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Man is allowed to say that Ishmael was Abrahams' biological son. God, on the otherhand, Says that Ishmael lost his sonship.
God never said that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
9Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. 10Therefore she said to Abraham, "Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac."
(Genesis 21:10-12).
That is Sarah saying so that only her own son gets all the inheritance from Abraham. Sarah is not God. God, on the other hand, says:

Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives where one is loved but the other is unloved, and both of them bear him sons, but the firstborn is the son of the unloved wife, then when he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, he must not give preference to the firstborn of the beloved wife over the firstborn of the unloved wife. Instead, he must acknowledge the firstborn of the unloved wife by giving him double of everything he owns, because he is really the first fruit of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.”


God's word overrides Sarah's word.
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