U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-28-2017, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,656 times
Reputation: 113

Advertisements

I'm a Christian, and I can attest to the occasional Muslim claim, of Christian theology being complex or even outright complicated. Believing in the mainstream Christian teaching of, "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" can be confusing to some, including myself. Three distinct persons, yet, One God, is hard to comprehend for many people. I still don't understand having an eternal Father in heaven, that doesn't die, and have someone to take his place. Fathers' die, and are then succeeded by their sons in earthly kingdoms. But, Jesus Christ, being the Son of God in Christian theology, has no intention of claiming his fathers' throne.

Islamic theology seems to pride itself on being a simple, and easy to understand belief system. But, I've read some of the Quran, and I have many things I wish were easier to understand.

Why did God(Allah) create the Israelite nation?

Why are the overwhelming majority of Islamic prophets from the nation of Israel?

Why does God say that Christians and Jews are, "People of the Book" yet, also says they are not to be trusted?

Why does the Quran say that Jesus is not the Son of God, when the In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that he is the Son Of God, and that we will see him coming down from the clouds of heaven?

Why does the Quran deny that Jesus was crucified, when in the bible, Jesus talks to his own mother from the cross as he dies?

Why does the Quran endorse polygamy?

Why do many Muslims believe that dogs are unclean?

Why do the Shia Twelvers have a religious hierarchy, like, Ayatollahs, and Sunnis' don't?

Why do Muslims usually circumcise their children? (Please give me a Quranic verse!)

Why don't Muslims eat pork? (Please give me a Quranic verse!)

Why don't most Muslims drink alcohol, when both mainstream Jews, and Christians do?

Why are Muslim men allowed to marry Jews and Christians, but, Muslim women can't?

Why do Muslims believe that angels can't sin, when in the bible, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light?

Is it possible that the Biblical Satan, and the Quranic Iblees, are two different people?

Are Jinn greater or lesser than man and angels in intelligence and power?

Why do many Muslims believe the Jewish Torah and Christian Gospel to be corrupted?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-28-2017, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I'm a Christian, and I can attest to the occasional Muslim claim, of Christian theology being complex or even outright complicated. Believing in the mainstream Christian teaching of, "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" can be confusing to some, including myself. Three distinct persons, yet, One God, is hard to comprehend for many people. I still don't understand having an eternal Father in heaven, that doesn't die, and have someone to take his place. Fathers' die, and are then succeeded by their sons in earthly kingdoms. But, Jesus Christ, being the Son of God in Christian theology, has no intention of claiming his fathers' throne.

Islamic theology seems to pride itself on being a simple, and easy to understand belief system. But, I've read some of the Quran, and I have many things I wish were easier to understand.

...
...

Why do many Muslims believe the Jewish Torah and Christian Gospel to be corrupted?
Why?
Because Allah said so!

To Muslims everything Allah stated in the Quran is 100% truth [imperative] otherwise the faith is tainted.

Allah stated in the Quran the original revelations [oral] were revealed to the Jews and Christians but the Jews and Christians twisted those words in later generations and twisted more when the words were written into texts.

So Allah sent the final messenger, Muhammad and thereafter ensured the Quran will not be corrupted by ensuring the original words revealed to Muhammad are not to be changed via a memory system.

So the current Torah and Gospels in text in the hands of Jews and Christians respectively are corrupted from the Muslims' perspective, i.e. different from the original words revealed to Moses and Jesus.

I do not agree with the Muslims' claim the Torah and Gospels are corrupted and the Quran is 100% verbatim from Allah via Gabriel and Muhammad. Generally the Quran's claim is based on psychological desperation.

It is so easily to claim what are from the past are lies and the latest is the truth especially without empirical and rational justifications. There are so many other reasons why I disagree but I am not going into details here.


That the Quran is easy is merely relative to the Arabic language used for the Arabs. If Allah has used Aramaic or Hebrew, the Quran for the Qureshi then would definitely be difficult to read and understand for the Arabs.

Whilst easy to read in Arabic by Arabs, literal quality wise, the Quran is very very messy, disorganized and difficult to understand precisely. In addition it is full of dualistic [duck-rabbit] statements which are very ambiguous that can be interpreted into different right views and cannot be easily determined who is right and who is wrong. Only Allah can decide but Allah is nowhere to be found to judge at present.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-28-2017 at 09:52 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2017, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,656 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why?
Because Allah said so!

To Muslims everything Allah stated in the Quran is 100% truth [imperative] otherwise the faith is tainted.

Allah stated in the Quran the original revelations [oral] were revealed to the Jews and Christians but the Jews and Christians twisted those words in later generations and twisted more when the words were written into texts.

So Allah sent the final messenger, Muhammad and thereafter ensured the Quran will not be corrupted by ensuring the original words revealed to Muhammad are not to be changed via a memory system.

So the current Torah and Gospels in text in the hands of Jews and Christians respectively are corrupted from the Muslims' perspective, i.e. different from the original words revealed to Moses and Jesus.

Can you give me Quranic verse; or verses, where Allah declares the past scriptures to be corrupted?

I believe the Quran is an excellent piece of literature. I think in English, it flows better than the bible in some ways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 12:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Can you give me Quranic verse; or verses, where Allah declares the past scriptures to be corrupted?

I believe the Quran is an excellent piece of literature. I think in English, it flows better than the bible in some ways.
Moderator cut: deleted
2:75. [Pickthall] Have ye any hope that they [Jews] will be true to you when a party of them [Jews] used to listen to the Word [KLM: kalāma] of Allah, then used to change [HRF: yuḥarrifūnahu] it, after they had understood it knowingly?

2:146. Those [proto-Muslims] unto whom We gave the Scripture recognize (this revelation) [Quran] as they recognize their sons. But lo! a party of them [Jews of old] knowingly conceal [KTM: layaktumūna] the truth.

2:159. Those [Jews -infidels] who hide [KTM: yaktumūna] the proofs and the guidance which We [Allah] revealed, after We had made it clear in the Scripture: such [infidels] are accursed of Allah and accursed of those [angels, men] who have the power to curse.
There are other verses of such nature.

Last edited by june 7th; 05-29-2017 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: Insulting to Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 11:31 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I'm a Christian, and I can attest to the occasional Muslim claim, of Christian theology being complex or even outright complicated. Believing in the mainstream Christian teaching of, "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" can be confusing to some, including myself. Three distinct persons, yet, One God, is hard to comprehend for many people.
Christian theology about God is no different from the theology of Jews and Muslims regarding One God. All three believe in One God.

The problem begins when the Christians begin to describe God. We can't describe essence of God as the essence of God is beyond the understanding by human senses. Humans know nothing and have seen nothing that can be described by them as God. For this reason, God can be described only by His attributes rather than His essence. To describe God with Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is only an attempt by humans to describe God with terms that they know of with their senses. God cannot be described as "person". God is not a "person".

Having said that, what Christians describe as Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is what Muslims believe to be Allah, Messenger and the Angel who brings the message. The only difference is that Muslims do not believe either the Messenger or the Angel to be Allah (God). Muslims do not worship Messenger or the Angel but only Allah. Jesus too did not worship himself or the Holy Ghost but only God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I still don't understand having an eternal Father in heaven, that doesn't die, and have someone to take his place. Fathers' die, and are then succeeded by their sons in earthly kingdoms. But, Jesus Christ, being the Son of God in Christian theology, has no intention of claiming his fathers' throne.
Jesus was 100% human being. He did not know everything and, therefore, never God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Islamic theology seems to pride itself on being a simple, and easy to understand belief system. But, I've read some of the Quran, and I have many things I wish were easier to understand.
No problem!

The Qur'an (I normally write Qur'aan as it is closer to correct pronunciation) is easy to understand if we ponder over the verses and overlook or disregard no verse of the Qur'aan. This requires deeper study of the Qur'aan rather than just reading it a few times without reconciling verses in it on the same issue (which may not be together in the same chapter).

You have asked a lot of questions. I intend to answer each one of them. Please bear with me. It may take me some time to explain each of my answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o that they will save themselves from the wrath View Post
Why did God(Allah) create the Israelite nation?
Allah created humans to be vicegerent on earth. A vicegerent has to take instructions from the Higher Power to do his job. Israelites were the first large group of people who had begun to act anything like the purpose God had created humans for. That's why they were chosen to lead other human being with Message and Guidance from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why are the overwhelming majority of Islamic prophets from the nation of Israel?
Because the Israelites were the very first large group to be obeying God, they had to be kept on the straight path each time they deviated from it. This had carried on until the last messenger in Israelite line who came to give them the last warning to mend and be saved or carry on in their wrong path and face the wrath of God. The person who gives the last warning before you are to fall is regarded as messiah. Therefore, Jesus was The Messiah for Israelites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why does God say that Christians and Jews are, "People of the Book" yet, also says they are not to be trusted?
That is not understanding the Qur'aan correctly. We can trust Christians and Jews but not ALL and each one of them.

[3.75] And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say: There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.

Yes, we can trust some of them and can't trust some others. They are not all the same just as so-called Muslims are not all the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why does the Quran say that Jesus is not the Son of God, when the In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that he is the Son Of God, and that we will see him coming down from the clouds of heaven?
I don't think Jesus actually said that he is Son of God. He had said "son of man", not "Son of God" (Mathews 24:30, Mark 14:62).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why does the Quran deny that Jesus was crucified, when in the bible, Jesus talks to his own mother from the cross as he dies?
The guy on the cross was addressing Mary as "woman" rather than his mother. He was telling her to go and take her son with her. There is no proof that it was Jesus on the cross. It was late and dark and there was earthquake. Also, why was Jesus hiding from the Jews after the so called crucifixion? Was he afraid of the second death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why does the Quran endorse polygamy?
It does only in exceptional circumstances to give protection to those women who otherwise would have no protection. Otherwise, just one wife. Once again, it is a matter of understanding the Qur'aan properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why do many Muslims believe that dogs are unclean?
It's not in the Qur'aan. It probably comes from hadith books which are not approved by either God or the Prophet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why do the Shia Twelvers have a religious hierarchy, like, Ayatollahs, and Sunnis' don't?
Politics!

Shia go on what should have happened and Sunni go with what actually happened after the Prophet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why do Muslims usually circumcise their children? (Please give me a Quranic verse!)
They follow tradition of Abraham.

[16.123] Then We revealed to you: Follow the tradition of Abraham, the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

The tradition of circumcision began with Abraham and has carried on through his sons Ishmael and Isaac and through their generations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why don't Muslims eat pork? (Please give me a Quranic verse!)
[6.145] Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine-- for that surely is unclean-- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

There are three other similar verses in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why don't most Muslims drink alcohol, when both mainstream Jews, and Christians do?
It was forbidden when it began to do more damage than give benefit.

[2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why are Muslim men allowed to marry Jews and Christians, but, Muslim women can't?
Women are more likely to adopt their husbands' religion than men are likely to adopt their wives' religion. Even if a Jewess or a Christian woman rejects Islam, Muslim man is not to marry her. The main ruling is in the Qur'aan 2:221:

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Muslims ("Believers") can't give their daughters in marriage to anyone who does not "believe" that the Qur'aan is from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why do Muslims believe that angels can't sin, when in the bible, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light?
Disguising as an angel is not the same as being angel. Angels do not have freewill; humans and jinn have. Iblis (Satan) was a jinn (not angel).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Is it possible that the Biblical Satan, and the Quranic Iblees, are two different people?
No. It is the same guy who persuaded Adam to disobey his God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Are Jinn greater or lesser than man and angels in intelligence and power?
Man has power only on earthly creatures. Angels and jinn are not earthly creatures. Angels and jinn are unseen by humans unless they come in disguise as earthly beings. In terms of intelligence, man is created with better intelligence because human is vicegerent of Allah on earth. Jinn can have no power over man if the man is upright and firm in faith. Man has the ability and intelligence (potential) to keep jinn/satan at bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Why do many Muslims believe the Jewish Torah and Christian Gospel to be corrupted?
Many but not all. It is a bigger subject to explain. Personally, I don't believe that these books are corrupted as most of the truth can still be found in them even though they were written well after Moses and Jesus respectively.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,656 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Christian theology about God is no different from the theology of Jews and Muslims regarding One God. All three believe in One God.

The problem begins when the Christians begin to describe God. We can't describe essence of God as the essence of God is beyond the understanding by human senses. Humans know nothing and have seen nothing that can be described by them as God. For this reason, God can be described only by His attributes rather than His essence. To describe God with Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is only an attempt by humans to describe God with terms that they know of with their senses. God cannot be described as "person". God is not a "person".

Having said that, what Christians describe as Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is what Muslims believe to be Allah, Messenger and the Angel who brings the message. The only difference is that Muslims do not believe either the Messenger or the Angel to be Allah (God). Muslims do not worship Messenger or the Angel but only Allah. Jesus too did not worship himself or the Holy Ghost but only God.

Jesus was 100% human being. He did not know everything and, therefore, never God.

No problem!

The Qur'an (I normally write Qur'aan as it is closer to correct pronunciation) is easy to understand if we ponder over the verses and overlook or disregard no verse of the Qur'aan. This requires deeper study of the Qur'aan rather than just reading it a few times without reconciling verses in it on the same issue (which may not be together in the same chapter).

You have asked a lot of questions. I intend to answer each one of them. Please bear with me. It may take me some time to explain each of my answers.

Allah created humans to be vicegerent on earth. A vicegerent has to take instructions from the Higher Power to do his job. Israelites were the first large group of people who had begun to act anything like the purpose God had created humans for. That's why they were chosen to lead other human being with Message and Guidance from God.

Because the Israelites were the very first large group to be obeying God, they had to be kept on the straight path each time they deviated from it. This had carried on until the last messenger in Israelite line who came to give them the last warning to mend and be saved or carry on in their wrong path and face the wrath of God. The person who gives the last warning before you are to fall is regarded as messiah. Therefore, Jesus was The Messiah for Israelites.

That is not understanding the Qur'aan correctly. We can trust Christians and Jews but not ALL and each one of them.

[3.75] And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say: There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.

Yes, we can trust some of them and can't trust some others. They are not all the same just as so-called Muslims are not all the same.

I don't think Jesus actually said that he is Son of God. He had said "son of man", not "Son of God" (Mathews 24:30, Mark 14:62).

The guy on the cross was addressing Mary as "woman" rather than his mother. He was telling her to go and take her son with her. There is no proof that it was Jesus on the cross. It was late and dark and there was earthquake. Also, why was Jesus hiding from the Jews after the so called crucifixion? Was he afraid of the second death?

It does only in exceptional circumstances to give protection to those women who otherwise would have no protection. Otherwise, just one wife. Once again, it is a matter of understanding the Qur'aan properly.

It's not in the Qur'aan. It probably comes from hadith books which are not approved by either God or the Prophet.

Politics!

Shia go on what should have happened and Sunni go with what actually happened after the Prophet.

They follow tradition of Abraham.

[16.123] Then We revealed to you: Follow the tradition of Abraham, the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

The tradition of circumcision began with Abraham and has carried on through his sons Ishmael and Isaac and through their generations.


[6.145] Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine-- for that surely is unclean-- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

There are three other similar verses in the Qur'aan.

It was forbidden when it began to do more damage than give benefit.

[2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

Women are more likely to adopt their husbands' religion than men are likely to adopt their wives' religion. Even if a Jewess or a Christian woman rejects Islam, Muslim man is not to marry her. The main ruling is in the Qur'aan 2:221:

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Muslims ("Believers") can't give their daughters in marriage to anyone who does not "believe" that the Qur'aan is from God.

Disguising as an angel is not the same as being angel. Angels do not have freewill; humans and jinn have. Iblis (Satan) was a jinn (not angel).

No. It is the same guy who persuaded Adam to disobey his God.

Man has power only on earthly creatures. Angels and jinn are not earthly creatures. Angels and jinn are unseen by humans unless they come in disguise as earthly beings. In terms of intelligence, man is created with better intelligence because human is vicegerent of Allah on earth. Jinn can have no power over man if the man is upright and firm in faith. Man has the ability and intelligence (potential) to keep jinn/satan at bay.

Many but not all. It is a bigger subject to explain. Personally, I don't believe that these books are corrupted as most of the truth can still be found in them even though they were written well after Moses and Jesus respectively.

Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions!

Matthew 26:63-64 reads:

But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell Us, if you are the Messiah, the Son of the living God! " Jesus replied, " You have said so!" But, I say to all of you: from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

John 19:26-27

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, " woman, here is you son." And to the disciple, "here is your mother." From that time on, the disciple took her into his home.

Luke 23:34-43

Jesus said, " Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, " he saved others; let him save himself if he is Gods' Messiah, the Chosen One." The soldiers mocked him. They offered him vinegar, and said, " if you are King of the Jews, save yourself." There was a sign written above him, which read: This is the King of the Jews." One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" But, the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," He said, "since you are under the same sentence?" " We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, " Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, " Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 08:25 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions!

Matthew 26:63-64 reads:

But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell Us, if you are the Messiah, the Son of the living God! " Jesus replied, "You have said so!" But, I say to all of you: from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

John 19:26-27

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, " woman, here is you son." And to the disciple, "here is your mother." From that time on, the disciple took her into his home.

Luke 23:34-43

Jesus said, " Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, " he saved others; let him save himself if he is Gods' Messiah, the Chosen One." The soldiers mocked him. They offered him vinegar, and said, " if you are King of the Jews, save yourself." There was a sign written above him, which read: This is the King of the Jews." One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" But, the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," He said, "since you are under the same sentence?" " We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, " Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, " Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus never actually said that he is Son of God. When questioned, he said, "you have said so" (meaning, "not I").

In the Gospels, it is a story of "crucifixion" written many years later without any eye-witness having written it. The writers were not there and are writing what they thought had happened, that what had appeared to those present at the time but not necessarily the actual account. The Qur'aan is unequivocal, "they killed him not" and "it only appeared to them" and they have no knowledge of what had happened there.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Having died once, there was no need for Jesus to hide from the Jews. He was hiding because he hadn't died yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,656 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Jesus never actually said that he is Son of God. When questioned, he said, "you have said so" (meaning, "not I").

In the Gospels, it is a story of "crucifixion" written many years later without any eye-witness having written it. The writers were not there and are writing what they thought had happened, that what had appeared to those present at the time but not necessarily the actual account. The Qur'aan is unequivocal, "they killed him not" and "it only appeared to them" and they have no knowledge of what had happened there.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Having died once, there was no need for Jesus to hide from the Jews. He was hiding because he hadn't died yet.
What about this?


But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.… Matthew 16:16
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2017, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,656 times
Reputation: 113
Also, John 20:27

27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2017, 03:37 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
What about this?


But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.… Matthew 16:16
Five points:

(1) Jesus never said that he is Son of God.

(2) How did Simon Peter know that Jesus was Son of God when Jesus hadn't told him?

(3) Son of God is a later development. It developed too far even to the extent that it was expressed as being biological ("the only begotten son"). Originally, even in earlier Hebrew scriptures, the word "son" was used in a figurative manner and not in real/literal manner.

(4) The word used for son is "huios" which is the same word used for children in the Gospel of John (4:12, 12:36).

(5) Adam is son of God in Luke 3:38.

Do you know how many sons of God there are in the Bible? You can say that we are all children of God but none is begotten son of God. We are all created beings and so was Jesus.

Therefore, the Qur'aan is absolutely correct. God does not have son or wife. We must not go too far in religion.

[4.171] O followers of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (untruth) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top