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Old 06-18-2017, 12:31 AM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Is there anything in the Islamic religion that would explain a Muslim nation refusing to accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state?
But isnt there a group of faith practicing pious Jews who hold a RELIGIOUS BELIEF that Jews should never have a country of their own, and the illegal creation of Israel by the Zionists, in itself is against the fundamental doctrine of Jewish faith?

I think you should have a dialogue with them before you need any assurance from islamic faith.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
The Palestinians were fighting a civil war backed by other Arab nations. They weren't innocent bystanders in the war that happened with Arab nations.
Well before that, there was a war by those Zionists who had landed on the beach, helped by those who were already inside, with guns in their hands to force creation of Israel without any negotiations with Palestinians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
They came out on the losing side. That's always going to put them at a disadvantage.
The State of Israel should never have been declared without negotiations with Palestinians. It was the Zionists who had taken up arms to force creation of State of Israel without negotiations with the Palestinians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
I still don't understand what you mean about Islam being able to accommodate the Jewish people because they supposedly worship the same god...
In terms of religion, Jewish people do not recognize legitimacy of Muslims to be in the holy land and have worship places there. This is what is preventing them to recognize State of Palestine. Such a recognition will make them recognize their legitimacy to the holy land. So the design is to force Muslims out of there by building more Jewish settlements and create full Jewish ownership of the holy land. Muslims do not think that way in religious terms. Muslims do recognize that the Israeltes were the first large group of people who were given charge of the holy land by God on the basis that they were obeying Him rather than just because they were "Jews".

In other words, Muslims do recognize that the both groups can share the holy land as both groups worship the same God and are to obey the same God. Do the Jewish people too recognize the same? If not then there is the real problem why Israel will not recognize a Palestinian State that includes any part of the holy land. Muslims or Islam have no such problem in having a State of Israel alongside State of Palestine sharing the holy land in terms of their religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
The question here is about accepting a modern Jewish state where of course some of them are atheists and so certainly aren't worshipping the same god!
Atheists have no right to the holy land as the holy land is only for those who obey God. The adult Jews with Moses in the desert coming from Egypt who did not obey God were prevented by God from entering the holy land. That's proof enough from even the Jewish scriptures that the holy land is for occupation and to be administered by only those who obey God. Both Muslims and Jews come into that bracket but not the atheists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
So let's be clear about this: can Islam accept the modern Jewish state of Israel?
If you mean a state that includes atheists or idol worshipers which includes holy land then "No" but if it includes Jews who obey God then "Yes". There are Muslims countries that have already accepted the State of Israel and thus Islam can accept a Jewish State that includes a part of the holy land. Therefore, your question is not a legitimate question, and is designed only to take the light off the real and relevant question today, can Judaism or Jews accept a Palestinian State, that includes part of the holy land, or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
As for settlement building... Well the Palestinians don't want peace. Should Israel be looking for a peace deal when she knows it's impossible at this time? It doesn't help the situation. But there isn't any real chance of peace anyway.
And we all know why and which side benefits from there being no peace in the holy land. And we also know which side had refused to accept which State in the UNGA when there was a vote taken.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:23 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,046,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But isnt there a group of faith practicing pious Jews who hold a RELIGIOUS BELIEF that Jews should never have a country of their own, and the illegal creation of Israel by the Zionists, in itself is against the fundamental doctrine of Jewish faith?
Many faith practicing pious Jews do not want to put even a foot on the Masjid Mount (often mentioned as the Temple Mount) just in case they put there foot on the wrong place. They are waiting for the Messiah to come before they can do that. Some others are now losing their patient in waiting for their Messiah (who has already come and gone) and want to take over the Mount by force.

"Chief rabbis have always argued that it is forbidden for Jews to enter the Temple Mount complex for religious reasons, specifically in order to inadvertently walk over areas that laypeople were forbidden from entering."

https://972mag.com/israels-chief-rab...sharif/119972/
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:07 AM
 
226 posts, read 124,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But isnt there a group of faith practicing pious Jews who hold a RELIGIOUS BELIEF that Jews should never have a country of their own, and the illegal creation of Israel by the Zionists, in itself is against the fundamental doctrine of Jewish faith?

I think you should have a dialogue with them before you need any assurance from islamic faith.
This looks like an absurd diversion of the issue.

Speaking with such a group of Jews is going to make no difference to the Islamic religion. A viewpoint of certain Jews about Judaism will prove anything about Islam??
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:18 AM
 
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Ok Khalif. You seem to be saying that Islam can't tolerate a Jewish state such as Israel with the kind of freedom of religion it has. (eg freedom to be atheist or non practicing Jew.)

So just to be clear on this-- Islam could never accept the modern Jewish state because of its freedom of religion?
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:01 PM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
This looks like an absurd diversion of the issue.

Speaking with such a group of Jews is going to make no difference to the Islamic religion. A viewpoint of certain Jews about Judaism will prove anything about Islam??
The point is, you are trying to get an approval of some sort of assurance from Islam to legit the creation of an illegal Jewish state called Israel, when your own people don't agree with its creation.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,381 posts, read 24,181,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Well before that, there was a war by those Zionists who had landed on the beach, helped by those who were already inside, with guns in their hands to force creation of Israel without any negotiations with Palestinians.
No, you're deleting the historical facts that Mohammed Amin al-Husseini with the aid of the Nazis were arming Arabs in Egypt and sending out propaganda to Arabs since the end of WW1. Plus you are all missing the fact that the British had an embargo on Jews getting arms.

Quote:
The State of Israel should never have been declared without negotiations with Palestinians. It was the Zionists who had taken up arms to force creation of State of Israel without negotiations with the Palestinians.
Everybody, Jew, Arab and Christian, was a Palestinian up to 1948. You want to about negotiations? Where the negotiations when Jordan was created as it's leader was from Saudi Arabia? Where the negotiations when Iraq was given to a Hashemite from Saudi Arabia? It's pretty clear negotiations are only required when Jews are involved.

Quote:
In terms of religion, Jewish people do not recognize legitimacy of Muslims to be in the holy land and have worship places there. This is what is preventing them to recognize State of Palestine. Such a recognition will make them recognize their legitimacy to the holy land. So the design is to force Muslims out of there by building more Jewish settlements and create full Jewish ownership of the holy land. Muslims do not think that way in religious terms. Muslims do recognize that the Israeltes were the first large group of people who were given charge of the holy land by God on the basis that they were obeying Him rather than just because they were "Jews".
The Arabs that live in Israel can travel everywhere a Jew can. It's the Jew who can't travel everywhere a Muslim can. There were no Jews in Gaza and the West Bank from 1949-1967 why? Because the Arabs evicted them. Yet during the same time period there were Arabs in Israel and there were no evictions.

Quote:
In other words, Muslims do recognize that the both groups can share the holy land as both groups worship the same God and are to obey the same God. Do the Jewish people too recognize the same? If not then there is the real problem why Israel will not recognize a Palestinian State that includes any part of the holy land. Muslims or Islam have no such problem in having a State of Israel alongside State of Palestine sharing the holy land in terms of their religion.
Rewriting history again? Nearly 2 Million Jews were evicted from their homes in Muslim countries in Africa and the Middle East in the early 1950's. Muslims do not recognize that both groups can share the same land.


Quote:
Atheists have no right to the holy land as the holy land is only for those who obey God. The adult Jews with Moses in the desert coming from Egypt who did not obey God were prevented by God from entering the holy land. That's proof enough from even the Jewish scriptures that the holy land is for occupation and to be administered by only those who obey God. Both Muslims and Jews come into that bracket but not the atheists.
And you think there are no atheists in Muslim countries? They know if they say they are that it's a death sentence.

Quote:
If you mean a state that includes atheists or idol worshipers which includes holy land then "No" but if it includes Jews who obey God then "Yes". There are Muslims countries that have already accepted the State of Israel and thus Islam can accept a Jewish State that includes a part of the holy land. Therefore, your question is not a legitimate question, and is designed only to take the light off the real and relevant question today, can Judaism or Jews accept a Palestinian State, that includes part of the holy land, or not?
Two countries out of how many in the Arab League?


Quote:
And we all know why and which side benefits from there being no peace in the holy land. And we also know which side had refused to accept which State in the UNGA when there was a vote taken.
Do you not know that the leaders of HAMAS and FATAH are near billionaires? There is no reason for them to want Palestine to become a country. Didn't you learn anything when Arafat was outed for the billions he had outside the country and his wife was living like a queen?
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,381 posts, read 24,181,153 times
Reputation: 8875
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
The point is, you are trying to get an approval of some sort of assurance from Islam to legit the creation of an illegal Jewish state called Israel, when your own people don't agree with its creation.
That group only makes up 10% of Jews. They are pretty much hypocrites as they have no problem living in Israel while not recognizing it. They have no problem living off of welfare in Israel while not recognizing it. They refuse to enter the army since they don't recognize Israel. Yet they are the ones who are in the settlements instigating some of the issues with the Arabs and then calling in the Israeli army when it gets out of hand. They are Israels catch-22; One one hand Israel would love to send them all back to the US, but on the other hand they have so many children that they raise the population of Jews in Israel.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:17 PM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,661,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
That group only makes up 10% of Jews. They are pretty much hypocrites as they have no problem living in Israel while not recognizing it. They have no problem living off of welfare in Israel while not recognizing it. They refuse to enter the army since they don't recognize Israel. Yet they are the ones who are in the settlements instigating some of the issues with the Arabs and then calling in the Israeli army when it gets out of hand. They are Israels catch-22; One one hand Israel would love to send them all back to the US, but on the other hand they have so many children that they raise the population of Jews in Israel.
Yes Pruzhany.
Your point and your opinion represents how you look at it. However, that's only one side of the story. And I respect that.
And in all honesty, one must be open to listen to their side of the story, and see what do they have to support their ideology.
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:02 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,381 posts, read 24,181,153 times
Reputation: 8875
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Yes Pruzhany.
Your point and your opinion represents how you look at it. However, that's only one side of the story. And I respect that.
And in all honesty, one must be open to listen to their side of the story, and see what do they have to support their ideology.
That group is remnants of those who survived WW2. One has normal people of religion and one has bible thumpers. They are the later. If you look up the West Bank population and compare it to all of Israel, one finds that most Israelis don't want to be there. All their construction is subsidized by their US counterparts. If you want to read about their US counterparts, just look up Kiryas Joel.

Once the war started in 1948, everything that culminated before it really didn't matter anyone. It was a war of people fighting for their lives versus a people fighting for land they didn't own. By mid 1949 the war came down to a armistice with the Arabs losing even more land. The Arabs did gain Jerusalem, but they didn't respect it. Under Arab control it was not open to any other religion other than Muslims. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were not made into Palestine. They were instead annexed by Egypt and Jordan. The Arabs there lived within cities and there was no agriculture done with the land. Move 18 years forward and the war was repeated again. The Arabs lost everything they had to build their nation with and their host countries lost large chunks of their own land. Two big changes came into place. The land was allocated out to create agriculture and Jerusalem was once again open to all religions. Move up to 1973 and the Arabs lost another war. Israel giving up the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians was the litmus test for self governing and growth. Yet within hours the Arabs were firing rockets out of the Gaza Strip. They made their choice and have to live with the ramifications of it. If the Gaza Strip were sitting in any other country and starting firing rockets out of their county, there is no doubt in my mind that those around them would ride in and decimate them. Yet Israel is told to suck it up.
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