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Old 06-22-2017, 02:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Nope. Pork was already in Israel as it was eaten by Christian Arabs. Russians who were brought in from lands where religion was not allowed were Jews, but knew nothing of Jewish law. A very small percentage of the elderly Russian Jews still eat pork, but they purchase it in Christian Arab markets.
If they knew nothing about the Jewish law then they were not obeying God. They should never have been allowed in to desecrate the holy land.

All the adult Jews coming from Egypt with Moses were prevented from entering the holy land because they did not obey God. Holy land is not for the Jews but for those who obey God.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:44 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,089,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If they knew nothing about the Jewish law then they were not obeying God. They should never have been allowed in to desecrate the holy land.

All the adult Jews coming from Egypt with Moses were prevented from entering the holy land because they did not obey God. Holy land is not for the Jews but for those who obey God.
They new god in the only way they knew. It is not a desecration of Israel to enter Israel to learn the correct path. Israel has no Sharia laws as in Saudi Arabia that stops them. All has has to prove is that they have a lineage of Jewish mothers and they're in.

What happened 3300 years ago was to idol worshipers who know it was wrong even before getting the word of god. BIG difference.

Last edited by Pruzhany; 06-22-2017 at 03:52 AM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:43 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
They new god in the only way they knew.
It is not a matter of knowing God but obeying God. Even the golden calf worshipers knew God but they were put to sword (3000 of them in one day) on the order of Moses. They did not deserve to go to the holy land even when they were Jews by birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
It is not a desecration of Israel to enter Israel to learn the correct path.
It IS desecration of the holy land if you are someone not obeying God. Holy land was not given to Jews but to those who obeyed God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Israel has no Sharia laws as in Saudi Arabia that stops them. All has has to prove is that they have a lineage of Jewish mothers and they're in.
The the holy land must not be part of such an Israel full of atheists known as Jews. Holy land is holy land and not Jewish land for disobeying God.

By the way, FYI, law of Moses is also "Sharia" law. Any law ordained by God is "Sharia" law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
What happened 3300 years ago was to idol worshipers who know it was wrong even before getting the word of god. BIG difference.
That's when the law was established by God that only those will possess the land who obeyed Him. Those who did not obey Him were prevented by God from entering the land. This means the precedent was set then as to who should go to that land.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
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I think I will put my take on this. I'm not Muslim, so I can only compare my Western view, to a Muslim point of view. But, this is how I see it myself. Jews claims to be the direct descendents of the Israelites. The term "Jew" comes from the meshing of the tribes of Levi, and Benjamin, uniting with the tribe of Judah. Most of the other 10 tribes of Israel vanished.

The Jews claim to be the continuing line of the Israelites. God does say in the Torah that he promised the land to the offspring of Jacob. That is why God brought them and Moses out of slavery in Egypt. People have been converting to Judaism for 3,000 years. My grandmother was Jewish, but I was raised Christian. Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. In order to be a practicing Jew, you must deny the messiahship of Jesus.

Muslims and Christians both believe Jesus is the Messiah of the Israelites. Many Palestinians; perhaps 10-20% are Christians, and they suffer with their fellow Muslim Palestinians. Jews have always believed that they will return to the "Land of Israel" (Zion)but, most believed it would only happen when the Messiah came to help them.

Zionism is a new Jewish nationalistic belief in creating a Jewish state, that is only about 100 or so, years old. Jews claim they were exiled, and now have returned to Zion.

Many Orthodox Jews don't support the nation of Israel because they want to wait for the Messiah to come.

Most Palestinians are Muslims. If, however, were most Palestinians were Christians, I don't believe Israel would exist. Palestinians got shafted by the victorious World War Two powers.

Most of the strongest countries in the world are Christian majority countries, and they support the idea of a Jewish claim to Palestine. President Truman supported Israel because he was a Christian, and he believed Jews had a right to create a Jewish state.

Even the Athiest government of the Soviet Union believed Jews had a right to claim Palestine. Muslim countries were weak and could not prevent this from happening.

They say time heals all wounds, about half of the Muslim world recognizes Israel. Even the PLO now recognizes the state of Israel. But, most Arab countries don't recognize Israel. Some 30 Muslim countries don't recognize Israel because of what happened to the Palestinians, as most Palestinians are Muslim.

Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem, before Muhammad switch the site of prayer to Mecca. Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. But, now it is the capital of Israel.
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:52 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I think I will put my take on this. I'm not Muslim, so I can only compare my Western view, to a Muslim point of view. But, this is how I see it myself. Jews claims to be the direct descendents of the Israelites. The term "Jew" comes from the meshing of the tribes of Levi, and Benjamin, uniting with the tribe of Judah. Most of the other 10 tribes of Israel vanished.
Yes, the term "Jew" or "Yehudi" never existed until the tribe of Judah (from Jacob's son) existed. This is why Abraham was not a "Jew" nor a "Christian".

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The Jews claim to be the continuing line of the Israelites. God does say in the Torah that he promised the land to the offspring of Jacob.
This is incorrect because of two reasons:

(1) The land was given to the offspring of Abraham (because he had obeyed God).

(2) The land was not given to "the offspring of Jacob" because many of the descendants of Jacob were prevented by God to enter the holy land. Their promise was fulfilled the moment they had come out of Egypt. As they were prevented from entering the holy land by God, the holy land was not for just being Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
That is why God brought them and Moses out of slavery in Egypt.
God didn't bring them out of Egypt because they were Jews and He wanted to give them the holy land but because God had to send His message to people so that they could spread it to the others. The Israelites were the only large group on earth at the time who could receive and believe His message. So God chose them for His message. They were not chosen just for being Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
People have been converting to Judaism for 3,000 years. My grandmother was Jewish, but I was raised Christian. Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. In order to be a practicing Jew, you must deny the messiahship of Jesus.
This is where they have gone wrong!

Over two thousands years and they are still waiting for him when he came and went over 2000 years ago. They are not going to get another one; they've missed the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Muslims and Christians both believe Jesus is the Messiah of the Israelites. Many Palestinians; perhaps 10-20% are Christians, and they suffer with their fellow Muslim Palestinians. Jews have always believed that they will return to the "Land of Israel" (Zion)but, most believed it would only happen when the Messiah came to help them.
They have got fed up of waiting for their Messiah, and that's why many of them have forced the issue of return and now many want to build the third temple without their Messiah. Not only premature return and creation of Israel has caused problems but building a third temple prematurely (without the Messiah) is going to cause even bigger problem in the Middle East.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Zionism is a new Jewish nationalistic belief in creating a Jewish state, that is only about 100 or so, years old. Jews claim they were exiled, and now have returned to Zion.
That's their interpretation. Return to Zion could be anything from return to obeying God to return to God in the Hereafter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Many Orthodox Jews don't support the nation of Israel because they want to wait for the Messiah to come.
Perhaps they know more about their religion than those who have prematurely forced the creation of State of Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Most Palestinians are Muslims. If, however, were most Palestinians were Christians, I don't believe Israel would exist. Palestinians got shafted by the victorious World War Two powers.
Perhaps that's why they are not liked by the Palestinians. At least one of them had even refused to accept a Palestinian State in the previous UNGA vote. Still, things are changing in the Palestinian direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Most of the strongest countries in the world are Christian majority countries, and they support the idea of a Jewish claim to Palestine. President Truman supported Israel because he was a Christian, and he believed Jews had a right to create a Jewish state.
You can't trust political Christians. They haven't supported Christians in the holy land. They didn't realize that only the Muslims can support Christians in the holy land and never the Jews who do not even believe in Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Even the Athiest government of the Soviet Union believed Jews had a right to claim Palestine.
Those atheists just wanted to get rid of Jews from Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Muslim countries were weak and could not prevent this from happening.
And they have paid a heavy price for leaving education and their religion in becoming weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
They say time heals all wounds, about half of the Muslim world recognizes Israel. Even the PLO now recognizes the state of Israel. But, most Arab countries don't recognize Israel. Some 30 Muslim countries don't recognize Israel because of what happened to the Palestinians, as most Palestinians are Muslim.
Some will never recognize Israel unless Israel recognizes State of Palestine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem, before Muhammad switch the site of prayer to Mecca. Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. But, now it is the capital of Israel.
Jerusalem will also be the capital of Palestine. It has to be because a secular Israel cannot be trusted to preserve the Masjid Mount as a purely worshiping site. Only the Muslims can preserve it for all, including the Christians and Jews. This is so because Muslims are the only group of the three groups that recognize the other two as valid religious groups, and thus can respect their right to live in the holy land and worship there even on the Mount.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:13 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are wrong there!

Speaking to those Jews will make you understand why you cannot have a secular State that includes the holy land. It will be desecrating the holy land when atheists, idol worshipers and God haters roam the streets in the holy land.
This thread isn't about what certain Jews think.

What is compatible with Islam?

Is the modern state of Israel--including its atheists etc--compatible with Islam?

Can *Islam* tolerate such a situation?
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:20 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
why does it matter then what Muslims think?
Because that's the OP issue. (Or the compatibilty with Islam.)

When a question is asked, you don't change the subject of the thread to something else. Why?-- because it's a diversion not relevant to the topic. It will not help answer the issue.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:48 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
This thread isn't about what certain Jews think.

What is compatible with Islam?
What those Jews think is compatible with both Islam and Judaism, is the point being made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Is the modern state of Israel--including its atheists etc--compatible with Islam?
Including atheists in such a State that includes the holy land is compatible neither with Judaism nor with Islam, is the point being made here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Can *Islam* tolerate such a situation?
Neither "Islam" nor "Judaism" can tolerate such a situation. There are Jews and Muslims saying the same thing; the holy land is not for those who do not obey God.

Let me spell it out even better:

Muslims will have no problem with a Jewish State, in which are included atheists, if it is outside the holy land. We already know the result of atheists living in the holy land; they had turned the Masjid Mount (known then as the Temple Mount) into a garbage dump. Muslims will not tolerate the same situation to develop once more.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:54 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Because that's the OP issue. (Or the compatibilty with Islam.)

When a question is asked, you don't change the subject of the thread to something else. Why?-- because it's a diversion not relevant to the topic. It will not help answer the issue.
Absolutely relevant to the topic; it backs up the answer to the question.

When Islam and Judaism come together, those who do not obey God have no right to be in the holy land.
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Old 06-24-2017, 05:46 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What those Jews think is compatible with both Islam and Judaism, is the point being made.

Including atheists in such a State that includes the holy land is compatible neither with Judaism nor with Islam, is the point being made here.

Neither "Islam" nor "Judaism" can tolerate such a situation. There are Jews and Muslims saying the same thing; the holy land is not for those who do not obey God.

Let me spell it out even better:

Muslims will have no problem with a Jewish State, in which are included atheists, if it is outside the holy land. We already know the result of atheists living in the holy land; they had turned the Masjid Mount (known then as the Temple Mount) into a garbage dump. Muslims will not tolerate the same situation to develop once more.
Right then, we have your answer: Islam can't accept the modern Jewish state of Israel, because of its freedom of religion. Maybe we can add, "it's freedom of religion *and* particular location".

Unless you will try to say--once again--"oh no that's not what I'm saying"....
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