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Old 06-22-2017, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,576 times
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I've read that many Muslim scholars believe the Jewish and Christian scriptures to be corrupted. Where does this come from?

Some of the Jewish and Christian scriptures have grammatical errors in various translations;Example the Book of Enoch. But, for the most part they are near perfect in the message conveyed.

Their are many books in the various bibles from various groups from around the world. Some bibles have around 60 books, while others have near 100 books. The Old Testament was written between the 10th-3rd century BCE. The New Testament is believed to have been written in the 1st-2nd century AD. Roughly, 40-85 years after the reported Resurrection of Jesus.

Many believe the first Torah ever written was in Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and then later in the Paleo-Hebrew script. The oldest fragments of the current Assyrian-Hebrew script only goes back to the 6th century BCE.

The Quran was compiled by various followers of Muhammad. The Quran was not even put together until after the death of Muhammad, so Muhammad did not have the final say in the matter. Many scholars believe that Muhammad himself was Illiterate. Many, if not most, of the followers of Muhammad are thought to have been illiterate as well.

I'm not attacking the Quran, but I am saying many people in that era of Arabia were illiterate. How can you prove its the same one preached by Muhammad? The ancient Jews were very learned and have had talented scribes since the time of Moses. Why do so many Moslems believe the Hebrew Scriptures to be corrupted?

The Dead Sea Scrolls vary in age from 2,500-1,800 years old. They are not the oldest confirmed religious writings from that time period in that area. The Torah of the Samaritans, still uses the ancient Paleo-Hebrew script. The Samaritan Torah is textually different from the Jewish Torah. But, the Samaritans now number under 1,000 people. Jews and Samaritans hated each other in the time of Jesus; but Jesus endorsed the Jewish Torah.

Are the stories of Jesus death and resurrection in the Christian bible considered false in Islam? What about the Jewish Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, Malachi? Are they false Prophets?

What about Paul? Do Muslims consider Paul a false messenger? Paul claims to have met Jesus.
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I've read that many Muslim scholars believe the Jewish and Christian scriptures to be corrupted. Where does this come from?
Probably hadith books but I have yet to see it coming from the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan claims to “confirm” the scriptures rather than claims that these scriptures have been “corrupted”. The Qur’aan tells the People of the Book:

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My ayat (signs/verses); and Me, Me alone should you fear.

From this verse of the Qur’aan, I gather that the Qur’aan confirms/verifies what was with them at the time of the revelation of the Qur’aan.

[10.37] And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

[12.111] In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Some of the Jewish and Christian scriptures have grammatical errors in various translations;Example the Book of Enoch. But, for the most part they are near perfect in the message conveyed.
The message we learn is the most important thing than nit-picking like grammatical errors in translations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Their are many books in the various bibles from various groups from around the world. Some bibles have around 60 books, while others have near 100 books. The Old Testament was written between the 10th-3rd century BCE. The New Testament is believed to have been written in the 1st-2nd century AD. Roughly, 40-85 years after the reported Resurrection of Jesus.
The Qur’aan is not concerned about that but what Jesus had actually said. There are still signs in the New Testament books as to what he had actually said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Many believe the first Torah ever written was in Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and then later in the Paleo-Hebrew script. The oldest fragments of the current Assyrian-Hebrew script only goes back to the 6th century BCE.
Again, the Qur’aan is not concerned about re-writing of the Torah but how the commands in the Torah have been obeyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The Quran was compiled by various followers of Muhammad. The Quran was not even put together until after the death of Muhammad, so Muhammad did not have the final say in the matter. Many scholars believe that Muhammad himself was Illiterate. Many, if not most, of the followers of Muhammad are thought to have been illiterate as well.
The Qur’aan wasn’t revealed in one go but in portions over a period of about 22 years. Each revealed portion was delivered by the messenger exactly as he had heard and it was not only written down but memorized immediately by the messenger and those with him. Therefore, the message of the Qur’aan was preserved in two forms from the outset.

It was the preserved verses in two forms that were then compiled into a Book form after Muhammad (pbuh) had gone. His job was done after the delivery of the last verses revealed and it was up to the rest still living to compile into a Book what was already preserved in two forms; one verifying the other for accuracy and authentication.

The above compilation was done in Abu Bakr’s time and pronunciation marks on the letters (without changing any word) were put on during Uthman’s time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I'm not attacking the Quran, but I am saying many people in that era of Arabia were illiterate. How can you prove its the same one preached by Muhammad?
At no time since any part of the Qur’aan was revealed, there have been no memorizers of the Qur’aan and no written record of the revealed verses. The two were combined at the compilation of the verses into one Book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The ancient Jews were very learned and have had talented scribes since the time of Moses. Why do so many Moslems believe the Hebrew Scriptures to be corrupted?
One reason could be that the original was never preserved. It was destroyed at the time of Babylonian attack and subsequent captivity of the Jews. The present text is re-written text after the captivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The Dead Sea Scrolls vary in age from 2,500-1,800 years old. They are not the oldest confirmed religious writings from that time period in that area. The Torah of the Samaritans, still uses the ancient Paleo-Hebrew script. The Samaritan Torah is different from the Jewish Torah. But, the Samaritans now number under 1,000 people. Jews and Samaritans hated each other in the time of Jesus; but Jesus endorsed the Jewish Torah.
Jesus endorsed the law of Moses rather than every single word of the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Are the stories of Jesus death and resurrection in the Christian bible considered false in Islam?
All that the Qur’aan says is that Jesus was neither crucified nor killed but it appeared so to the Jews at the time. Allah had raised him up. It could be that Jesus had died well before any crucifixion event. We will never know the exact truth. The narration in the Bible that he was hiding from the Jews “after the crucifixion” indicates that he never died on the cross. One dies only once and not twice. Jesus should have had no worries of Jews or Romans killing him twice if he had already died once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
What about the Jewish Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, Malachi? Are they false Prophets?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
What about Paul? Do Muslims consider Paul a false messenger? Paul claims to have met Jesus.
He had never met Jesus. I think he did more damage to Christianity than anyone else. Did he preach his message straightaway or after three years of alleged meeting with Jesus?
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Probably hadith books but I have yet to see it coming from the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan claims to “confirm” the scriptures rather than claims that these scriptures have been “corrupted”. The Qur’aan tells the People of the Book:

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My ayat (signs/verses); and Me, Me alone should you fear.

From this verse of the Qur’aan, I gather that the Qur’aan confirms/verifies what was with them at the time of the revelation of the Qur’aan.

[10.37] And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

[12.111] In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.


The message we learn is the most important thing than nit-picking like grammatical errors in translations.

The Qur’aan is not concerned about that but what Jesus had actually said. There are still signs in the New Testament books as to what he had actually said.

Again, the Qur’aan is not concerned about re-writing of the Torah but how the commands in the Torah have been obeyed.

The Qur’aan wasn’t revealed in one go but in portions over a period of about 22 years. Each revealed portion was delivered by the messenger exactly as he had heard and it was not only written down but memorized immediately by the messenger and those with him. Therefore, the message of the Qur’aan was preserved in two forms from the outset.

It was the preserved verses in two forms that were then compiled into a Book form after Muhammad (pbuh) had gone. His job was done after the delivery of the last verses revealed and it was up to the rest still living to compile into a Book what was already preserved in two forms; one verifying the other for accuracy and authentication.

The above compilation was done in Abu Bakr’s time and pronunciation marks on the letters (without changing any word) were put on during Uthman’s time.

At no time since any part of the Qur’aan was revealed, there have been no memorizers of the Qur’aan and no written record of the revealed verses. The two were combined at the compilation of the verses into one Book.

One reason could be that the original was never preserved. It was destroyed at the time of Babylonian attack and subsequent captivity of the Jews. The present text is re-written text after the captivity.

Jesus endorsed the law of Moses rather than every single word of the text.

All that the Qur’aan says is that Jesus was neither crucified nor killed but it appeared so to the Jews at the time. Allah had raised him up. It could be that Jesus had died well before any crucifixion event. We will never know the exact truth. The narration in the Bible that he was hiding from the Jews “after the crucifixion” indicates that he never died on the cross. One dies only once and not twice. Jesus should have had no worries of Jews or Romans killing him twice if he had already died once.

No.

He had never met Jesus. I think he did more damage to Christianity than anyone else. Did he preach his message straightaway or after three years of alleged meeting with Jesus?
Thanks for answering Khalif,

Jesus says the following in the bible, " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not even the smallest letter or pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished." - Matthew 5:18

Jesus was hiding himself from the Jews simply because he didn't want to be seen by them. Not because he was afraid of death.

Paul had a radical transformation. He went from killing Christians to becoming one himself. He was blind for three days after seeing Jesus.
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:09 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Thanks for answering Khalif,

Jesus says the following in the bible, " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not even the smallest letter or pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished." - Matthew 5:18

Jesus was hiding himself from the Jews simply because he didn't want to be seen by them. Not because he was afraid of death.

Paul had a radical transformation. He went from killing Christians to becoming one himself. He was blind for three days after seeing Jesus.
Basically, Paul isn't even mentioned by God in the Qur'aan. That's how important he was.
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Old 06-24-2017, 02:57 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,915 times
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You would think Muslims need to say that they are corrupted-- or otherwise they are just going to contradict the teaching of Islam and it will be an embarrassment for them.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:02 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Basically, Paul isn't even mentioned by God in the Qur'aan. That's how important he was.
If "allah" really wanted to respond to Christian theology and outline the religion's supposed errors, you would think that dealing with Paul would be a good idea. After all, there is no denying that Paul is important to the nature of Christianity.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:12 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
You would think Muslims need to say that they are corrupted-- or otherwise they are just going to contradict the teaching of Islam and it will be an embarrassment for them.
And if they are the same, they are copied and if different, it isn't from the same God. Mere existence of a later scriptures is embarrassment to them. So they deny them completely.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:27 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
If "allah" really wanted to respond to Christian theology and outline the religion's supposed errors, you would think that dealing with Paul would be a good idea. After all, there is no denying that Paul is important to the nature of Christianity.
He is important to Christians for his teachings. Allah did deal with his teachings without naming him. For Allah, the correct teachings through the Qur'aan mattered the most as He had already dealt with the guy a long time ago.
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:39 AM
 
226 posts, read 123,915 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And if they are the same, they are copied and if different, it isn't from the same God. Mere existence of a later scriptures is embarrassment to them. So they deny them completely.
Something can be *compatible* without being obviously copied.

The issue with the quran is that it wouldn't be compatible with previous scripture. And so Muslims have to deny that scripture to save their own religion.

You are correct that Christians have to deny later supposed "revelation" like the quran for the sake of their own religion. Although if the later supposed scripture doesn't fit with what they already have, they can say that they are justified in rejecting the later "scripture".

Basically if Muslims want to say that previous scripture is corrupted it can't just be out of a theological need *that they have to say it*.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:10 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Something can be *compatible* without being obviously copied.

The issue with the quran is that it wouldn't be compatible with previous scripture. And so Muslims have to deny that scripture to save their own religion.
You are not aware of the fact.

The Qur'aan confirms the previous revelations. Nothing new has been revealed through the Qur'aan that hasn't been revealed through the previous revelations. Therefore, previous revelations are no danger to my religion. Muslims do not deny previous revelations.

[3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

Did that cause any danger to my religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
You are correct that Christians have to deny later supposed "revelation" like the quran for the sake of their own religion. Although if the later supposed scripture doesn't fit with what they already have, they can say that they are justified in rejecting the later "scripture".
So do many of the Jews. Must be feeling danger to their religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProcess View Post
Basically if Muslims want to say that previous scripture is corrupted it can't just be out of a theological need *that they have to say it*.
I have never said so. I have no theological need to say so.
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