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Old 07-20-2017, 10:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post

Then this very intelligent and verbal person can say that Ibis (the enemy of Islam/humanity) inspired the whole "miraculous" chapter that says that Angels are male and female and are children of God (and thus deserving of offspring rights).

???

what on earth are you talking about?
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Old 07-20-2017, 10:29 PM
 
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For something written to be a miracle, there can be no possibility that it is intended to be a metaphor or allegorical. We are talking about miracles and that is what they must be without any doubt. The scientific "miracles" in the Quran must be things unknown at the time of Muhammad, they must be accurate, and again, they must be clear in their meaning. The literary "miracles" must be such that they could not have possibly been composed by man, or men. A miracle cannot be, in reality, a coincidence. That pretty much takes care of the alleged mathematical "miracles" in the Quran.

If the Quran had stated that "tiny creatures too small to be seen by the naked eye are the cause of many sicknesses", then that would be impressive and something to consider. If the Quran had a verse such as "the lightning from the heavens is a type of great energy, energy that will someday power the cities", that would be something. But the Quran says no such thing. It does speak very clearly about a first man made from clay named Adam. And that is incorrect.
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Old 07-20-2017, 10:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
For something written to be a miracle, there can be no possibility that it is intended to be a metaphor or allegorical. We are talking about miracles and that is what they must be without any doubt. The scientific "miracles" in the Quran must be things unknown at the time of Muhammad, they must be accurate, and again, they must be clear in their meaning. The literary "miracles" must be such that they could not have possibly been composed by man, or men. A miracle cannot be, in reality, a coincidence. That pretty much takes care of the alleged mathematical "miracles" in the Quran.

If the Quran had stated that "tiny creatures too small to be seen by the naked eye are the cause of many sicknesses", then that would be impressive and something to consider. If the Quran had a verse such as "the lightning from the heavens is a type of great energy, energy that will someday power the cities", that would be something. But the Quran says no such thing. It does speak very clearly about a first man made from clay named Adam. And that is incorrect.
As if you created the first man, and you know better?
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:23 AM
 
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Miracle of the Qur'aan is that it cannot be produced by any man, literate or illiterate, without help from God and it is guarded by God from any change being made in it.

There are three verses in it that challenge anyone to produce even a chapter or ten chapters like the chapters in the Qur'aan, or produce a saying like it.

The first challenge is to those who do not believe in its revelation:

[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

The second one is a challenge to those who claim that its chapters were forged by the messenger:

[11.13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

The last one is a challenge to anyone to produce such saying (hadith) if they think that these are sayings from Muhammad (pbuh) himself and not a revelation from God.

[52.34] Then let them bring a hadith like it if they are truthful.

Take the challenge if anyone fancies his chances of succeeding as Muhammad (pbuh) did for over 22 years!
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
For something written to be a miracle, there can be no possibility that it is intended to be a metaphor or allegorical. We are talking about miracles and that is what they must be without any doubt. The scientific "miracles" in the Quran must be things unknown at the time of Muhammad, they must be accurate, and again, they must be clear in their meaning. The literary "miracles" must be such that they could not have possibly been composed by man, or men. A miracle cannot be, in reality, a coincidence. That pretty much takes care of the alleged mathematical "miracles" in the Quran.
The Qur'aan is a book of guidance. It was never intended as mathematical miracle or a scientific book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
If the Quran had stated that "tiny creatures too small to be seen by the naked eye are the cause of many sicknesses", then that would be impressive and something to consider.
The people in Mecca and Madina could not have considered it as actual reality at the time. The Arabs would not have believed without Muhammad actually showing them those "tiny creatures".

Imagine Muhammad telling them that one day they would be flying above the clouds instead of using camels as their transport!

On the other hand, he did tell them how the clouds look like from above them but none had taken notice of it because they couldn't understand 24:43.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
If the Quran had a verse such as "the lightning from the heavens is a type of great energy, energy that will someday power the cities", that would be something.
They already knew that lightning is power that brightens their way at night and powers the cities even it is only for a moment or two.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'aan is a book of guidance. It was never intended as mathematical miracle or a scientific book.

The people in Mecca and Madina could not have considered it as actual reality at the time. The Arabs would not have believed without Muhammad actually showing them those "tiny creatures".

Imagine Muhammad telling them that one day they would be flying above the clouds instead of using camels as their transport!

On the other hand, he did tell them how the clouds look like from above them but none had taken notice of it because they couldn't understand 24:43.



They already knew that lightning is power that brightens their way at night and powers the cities even it is only for a moment or two.
I am talking about evidence that the Quran is actually the "word of God". And I have been referring to types of alleged evidence that I have been told by Muslims over the last few years. But why can't God tell people that someday they will be flying above the clouds? Why couldn't Allah state that "tiny creatures too small to see can cause disease"? Allah proclaimed that the first man was made from clay. How wild is that? That was accepted, wasn't it? I mean, the proclamations of Allah are to be accepted as fact, right? But I'm not the one who would need to produce evidence for those who question unverified supernatural claims, claims that should require evidence for anyone who is objective. The evidence would need to come from those who make the claims.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:40 PM
bg7
 
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Hmmm, in the entire history of mankind, how many illiterates have produced such a book that is memorized by 100 n thousands of people, and a verse from that book makes it way to the Harvard Law School's welcome wall?

Can we name 10 such illiterates or camel salesmen who did not know how to read or write but they dictated such a book?

You have at least 7 Billion people to find only 10 such people. Why not take the challenge and prove it wrong? Sounds an easy one, isn't it?
Since books have only been around for less than 5000 years, and mankind for at least 100,000, that's a bit of a silly question is it not?


Plus what does the subsequent history of it as a successful religion got to do with anything. That's simply the vagaries and randomness of human history. Plenty of religions and their holy texts have died, some gone forever. Its the same with most ideologies. And considering the rate of illiteracy around 1500 years ago in that area (and most of the world) - was estimated to be near 99% - its entirely unsurprising that someone who happened to be a good story teller and charismatic leader did not himself have the ability to write. Up until the 1800s people with a story to tell would routinely have pamphleteers, scribes, printers and others write or print it. Being a scribe - was a job! The Prophet may have been exceptional person - but exceptional people always exist. There have been many before and since (and of course billions of unexceptional people).


What is your point exactly?

Last edited by bg7; 07-21-2017 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:50 PM
bg7
 
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
As if you created the first man, and you know better?
Be serious, this is 2017 not 1017.
Jeepers. What do you think all those proto-human skeletons and skulls are that have been found and continue to be found all over the world? Early protoypes discarded?


Yes you should know better now than someone who was just making a wild guess 1500 years or 2000 years ago and then repeating that to others.


Allah/God may or may not have created man - but its absolutely clear He didn't create homo sapiens as is without any previous forms. Either He directed evolution or He played some huge joke on humankind burying all these early fossil forms in datable, successively older layers of the earth's crust - and was careful not to include any anachronistic fossils elsewhere in the same layer, nor any in lower earlier layers. How likely do you think it is he was playing a joke?


Like I said - be serious.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Since books have only been around for less than 5000 years, and mankind for at least 100,000, that's a bit of a silly question is it not?


Plus what does the subsequent history of it as a successful religion got to do with anything. That's simply the vagaries and randomness of human history. Plenty of religions and their holy texts have died, some gone forever. Its the same with most ideologies. And considering the rate of illiteracy around 1500 years ago in that area (and most of the world0 - was estimated to be near 99% - its entirely unsurprising that someone who happened to be a good story teller and charismatic leader did not himself have the ability to write. Up until the 1800s people with a story to tell would routinely have pamphleteers, scribes, printers and others write or print it. Being a scribe - was a job!


What is your point exactly?
If an illiterate person can dictate a literary work like Quran, then it should be very, very easy for a literate person like yourself to do better than him. Can you write or dictate a chapter like in Quran?
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I am talking about evidence that the Quran is actually the "word of God".
It certainly isn't the word of a man. I have never said that about hadith books. Nobody says that a hadith book is the "word of God".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
And I have been referring to types of alleged evidence that I have been told by Muslims over the last few years.
You don't need to refer to what is told by Muslims but ypu should refer to what is told Allah through the Qur'aan. The Qur'aan does not tell you anything about the miracles of the Qur'aan but why you should believe that it is from only God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
But why can't God tell people that someday they will be flying above the clouds? Why couldn't Allah state that "tiny creatures too small to see can cause disease"?
Allah wants you to find that out for yourself. He has given you ability to do that. Your subject is too big to be explained in the Qur'aan. And then where do you stop; atom bomb, internet, TV and how to have sex?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Allah proclaimed that the first man was made from clay. How wild is that? That was accepted, wasn't it?
Not wild at all! Origin of man is earth and water, whatever way you look at it. Clay is part of the earth. It needs water to become alive or else it will stay dead. Therefore, your origin is earth. You eat earthly things to survive and end up as part of the earth in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I mean, the proclamations of Allah are to be accepted as fact, right?
Some statements of Allah are literal, others allegorical/parables. We are to accept them on faith rather than prove everything first. That's why it is called "faith" rather than scientific proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
But I'm not the one who would need to produce evidence for those who question unverified supernatural claims, claims that should require evidence for anyone who is objective. The evidence would need to come from those who make the claims.
Everything claimed in the Qur'aan about this life has been proven true. Anything claimed about the next life (after death) can only be proved in the next life. If you do not believe about the next life, fine, it is your choice and to bear the consequence for this choice.
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