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Old 07-21-2017, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Be serious, this is 2017 not 1017.
Jeepers. What do you think all those proto-human skeletons and skulls are that have been found and continue to be found all over the world? Early protoypes discarded?
There is nothing wrong in assuming that your ancestors were apes and chimpanzees. Their origin is also earth.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
If an illiterate person can dictate a literary work like Quran, then it should be very, very easy for a literate person like yourself to do better than him. Can you write or dictate a chapter like in Quran?
When my great grandmother was a little girl she was supposedly bitten by a rabid dog. This was in the 1880s, way back before there was a vaccination. As the story goes, the dog was subsequently shot and killed. My great grandmother never got rabies. So, is this a miracle to you? If she prayed, would that make it a miracle? How about if my great grandmother were a Muslim, would her not getting rabies be a miracle? The reality is, none of these conditions should be considered a miracle by a rational, objective person. In all likelihood, the dog did not actually have rabies but was suffering from some disease that mimicked rabies.

What is meant by the notion of a literary work "like the Quran"? Was God in touch with Charles Dickens, Mark Twain, or the anonymous guy who wrote the Gospel According To Luke? Let's first assume Muhammad had a pretty good imagination that made the Quran a book with better than the average content. Why would that be grounds to declare the Quran a miracle? Maybe Muhammad wasn't too imaginative and he was secretly going into a cave and meeting a regular guy from whom he was getting ideas. These scenarios are far more plausible when compared to the notion that Muhammad spoke to an archangel. And these scenarios are not miracles.
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:19 PM
 
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The final Holy Book, The Holy Quran contains information could not be mentioned by any human being at the time.

The final Messenger of Allah Mahammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)
told us what to say to the one who sneeze and that is recorded in the second source of Islam which is The (Hadith (Prophet saying ))

and the jews and Christians they say something close to it .

Do you think that Mahammad copied this religion action from them .

and do they have records for it in the Bible or other religious books.
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Here
1,694 posts, read 1,493,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
The final Holy Book, The Holy Quran contains information could not be mentioned by any human being at the time.

The final Messenger of Allah Mahammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)
told us what to say to the one who sneeze and that is recorded in the second source of Islam which is The (Hadith (Prophet saying ))

and the jews and Christians they say something close to it .

Do you think that Mahammad copied this religion action from them .

and do they have records for it in the Bible or other religious books.
What information does the Quran have that could not be mentioned by any human being at the time? I have already spoke on this in an earlier post. If it is scientific information you are referring to, the information has to be clear in that it could not be allegorical or a metaphor. It has to be precise. No such information exists in the Quran.
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:57 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
What information does the Quran have that could not be mentioned by any human being at the time? I have already spoke on this in an earlier post. If it is scientific information you are referring to, the information has to be clear in that it could not be allegorical or a metaphor. It has to be precise. No such information exists in the Quran.

people have different knowledge and different specialization and some have basic knowledge and some have advanced . if there is something we can not understand there are who have specialized knowledge in such matter can clarify it for us
"Will they distribute the mercy of your Lord?
We distribute among them their livelihood in the life of this world,
and We j have exalted some of them above others in degrees,
that some of them may take others in subjection;
and the mercy of your Lord is better than what they amass." Holy Quran


for example not every one knows about human development inside the womb

and there are verses in the Quran that speak about it
and any one who is not specialized should not judge about it such as the following verses
"Then We made the seed a clot,
then We made the clot a lump of flesh,
then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones,
then We clothed the bones with flesh,
then We caused it to grow into another creation,
so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. "
Holy Quran 23:14

but Professor Keith Moore who is specialized in this field gave his statement regarding the above verse and said

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development.
It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah,
because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.
This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Here
1,694 posts, read 1,493,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
people have different knowledge and different specialization and some have basic knowledge and some have advanced . if there is something we can not understand there are who have specialized knowledge in such matter can clarify it for us
"Will they distribute the mercy of your Lord?
We distribute among them their livelihood in the life of this world,
and We j have exalted some of them above others in degrees,
that some of them may take others in subjection;
and the mercy of your Lord is better than what they amass." Holy Quran


for example not every one knows about human development inside the womb

and there are verses in the Quran that speak about it
and any one who is not specialized should not judge about it such as the following verses
"Then We made the seed a clot,
then We made the clot a lump of flesh,
then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones,
then We clothed the bones with flesh,
then We caused it to grow into another creation,
so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. "
Holy Quran 23:14

but Professor Keith Moore who is specialized in this field gave his statement regarding the above verse and said

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development.
It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah,
because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.
This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."

I am familiar with the very short verse on embryology. It has two distinct problems #1, it is information borrowed from Aristotle and to a lesser degree, Galen, both far pre-dated Muhammad, but not to worry, the verse is actually inaccurate. It describes the bones being "clothed by flesh". In actuality, both the flesh, and the bones, develop together. And if you want to get picky, a very simple explanation would be that Muhammad was informed of the development of embryos in mammals by a colleague or associate. Of course that explanation is not actually required given that the Quran's description is incorrect. Nevertheless, it is a far more plausible explanation when compared to the concept of Muhammad speaking to an archangel.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I am familiar with the very short verse on embryology. It has two distinct problems #1, it is information borrowed from Aristotle and to a lesser degree, Galen, both far pre-dated Muhammad, .
are you sure 100% the information is borrowed ?

Quote:
, but not to worry, the verse is actually inaccurate. It describes the bones being "clothed by flesh". In actuality, both the flesh, and the bones, develop together. .
the scientists are human and they are not perfect and they can make mistakes ,
they can say something and later they discover that they were wrong or they could enhance there statement and is what they used to believe but with development of technology and tools and microscope they gave different statement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBVKtPt_So


another example for scientists can be wrong is the total joins

The science recently figured them but it was mentioned 1400 years ago by the final Messenger of Allah
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
A human being has three hundred and sixty joints for each of which he must give alms.
The people asked him: Who is capable of doing this ?
He replied: It may be mucus in the mosque which you bury, and something which you remove from the road;
but if you do not find such, two rak'ahs (prayer) in the forenoon will be sufficient for you.



How many joints are there in the human body?
640 muscles. 206 bones. 360 joints. Ask a Question




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Old 07-22-2017, 10:12 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,738,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Miracle of the Qur'aan is that it cannot be produced by any man, literate or illiterate, without help from God and it is guarded by God from any change being made in it.

There are three verses in it that challenge anyone to produce even a chapter or ten chapters like the chapters in the Qur'aan, or produce a saying like it.

The first challenge is to those who do not believe in its revelation:

[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

The second one is a challenge to those who claim that its chapters were forged by the messenger:

[11.13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

The last one is a challenge to anyone to produce such saying (hadith) if they think that these are sayings from Muhammad (pbuh) himself and not a revelation from God.

[52.34] Then let them bring a hadith like it if they are truthful.

Take the challenge if anyone fancies his chances of succeeding as Muhammad (pbuh) did for over 22 years!
I think many books are and were just like the Quran, and many have been even better, and many also worse. Artistic taste is in the eye of those who choose one or another style, usually by cultural influence such as elder leaders or friends. And a style can only be copied or seem like a copy if it is the same or similar; meaning it would have to be "like" the other. What would you consider to be a book "like" the Quran? One with meters, one with rhymes, one with stories within stories, one with the main character saying he got his second-hand information from a lower source and not the highest or most direct? New writing styles are thought up every day, and some become very popular probably once a decade. The religious styles, of course, follow the trends in breeding and conversion of their religious followers. Even the ancient books of the pagans (people of freedom to choose a favorite among multiple characters in one general story) in the Arabian spoke loftily. Yet there are not too many books that copy or "exact" or if you stretch it also even "like" the style of The original Christian Bible. And that is probably because ugly styles require a religion around them to remain relevant.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 07-22-2017 at 10:21 PM..
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:31 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,738,704 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
...
It depends on what you consider to be flesh, bone, and what you consider to be joint.
Spoiler
(Of course, ancient Arabs before Muhammad came along, along with ancient Chinese, Indians, Greeks, Egyptians, etc. could count bones and joints when trying to write teaching manuals to sell, and they could often get to see fetuses at various stages given high "God-ended/natural/unknown cause" and "otherwise" miscarriages, etc.)

If a mass of "pre-muscle" cells and "pre-skin" cells isn't flesh to you, then indeed "cartilage pre-bones" form before "real muscle" and "real skin", however they also form before "real bone". The change from "pre-bone" to "real bone" begins around week six. However the change from "pre-muscle" to "real muscle" begins around week four. So, if you want to call the "cartilage pre-bones" as "real bones" and the pre-muscle as "not real muscle" then Literalism wins. I think that Muhammad was being rhetorical because it was probably a common sayings at the time. Even the Jews had it within their resurrection ideas from Ezekiel, and the Christians had brought it up in their "second birth" ideas that they had been also trying to spread into Arabia.

Joints are only between bones, and they provide some degree of movement. The number of joints differ from person to person, just like the number of teeth, or the size of the tailbone. If you want to say that "cartilage sections" are "joints" then you'd have to cut them out very carefully and purposefully in order to get to 360. If you want to include ligaments as joints, you'd have to do the same... as also different people have different numbers of ligaments/muscle bundles. Your nose cartilage also technically has joints, so you can either include and not those types of "join-lines". If you want to do a study about the "average" number of join-lines/areas in an adult human body, no one would think it helpful and would likely not fund it.

For "some reason," neither the Muslims nor the Christians, have come up with definitive "averages" that are very near 360 or very away from 360. I would love some clear definitions and clear lists.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Here
1,694 posts, read 1,493,939 times
Reputation: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
are you sure 100% the information is borrowed ?



the scientists are human and they are not perfect and they can make mistakes ,
they can say something and later they discover that they were wrong or they could enhance there statement and is what they used to believe but with development of technology and tools and microscope they gave different statement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBVKtPt_So


another example for scientists can be wrong is the total joins

The science recently figured them but it was mentioned 1400 years ago by the final Messenger of Allah
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
A human being has three hundred and sixty joints for each of which he must give alms.
The people asked him: Who is capable of doing this ?
He replied: It may be mucus in the mosque which you bury, and something which you remove from the road;
but if you do not find such, two rak'ahs (prayer) in the forenoon will be sufficient for you.

How many joints are there in the human body?
640 muscles. 206 bones. 360 joints. Ask a Question




So let me see if I understand you. You are inferring that the Quran says about embryology is correct and modern medical knowledge is incorrect. I'm not sure if you are saying that or not. Regardless, here is the problem: this entire thread is dedicated to finding actual, compelling evidence that the Quran is actually the "word of God" as relayed to Muhammad through an archangel. There are a couple of flaws that negate the notion that the few short verses about embryology in the Quran are any kind of even remotely compelling evidence. I went through the reasons a couple of posts ago. Here they are again: #1, it is information borrowed from Aristotle and to a lesser degree, Galen, both far pre-dated Muhammad, but not to worry, the verse is actually inaccurate. The Quran states that there are bones that are then "clothed by flesh". In actuality, both the flesh, and the bones, develop together. And if you want to get picky, though the Quran's information is incorrect, a very simple explanation would be that Muhammad was informed of the development of embryos in mammals by a colleague or associate. For any objective person, that is a far more plausible explanation when compared to the concept of Muhammad speaking to an archangel.
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