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Old 07-23-2017, 12:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I am familiar with the very short verse on embryology. It has two distinct problems #1, it is information borrowed from Aristotle and to a lesser degree, Galen, both far pre-dated Muhammad, but not to worry, the verse is actually inaccurate.
The verse in Arabic is quite accurate.

If you think that it is something borrowed from Aristotle or Galen then all you have to do is borrow from them or any other such source, write 10 chapters like the chapters of the Qur'aan, and claim it to be message from God. See how far it will get you as a messenger of God!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
It describes the bones being "clothed by flesh". In actuality, both the flesh, and the bones, develop together. And if you want to get picky, a very simple explanation would be that Muhammad was informed of the development of embryos in mammals by a colleague or associate. Of course that explanation is not actually required given that the Quran's description is incorrect. Nevertheless, it is a far more plausible explanation when compared to the concept of Muhammad speaking to an archangel.
As I stated, the statement in the Arabic Qur'aan is quite accurate. It doesn't say that bones were created (brought into existence) first and then flesh was created (brought into existence) and THEN the bones were covered with flesh. No, no, no. That is your assumption from reading the translation in English.

In reality, the stages are described as the semen-drop "النُّطْفَةَ", into a clinging substance "عَلَقَةً", into embryonic lump "مُضْغَةً", into bones covered with flesh "فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا". When it tells you about the bones "عِظَامًا", it immediately uses the resumption particle "fa" with "فَكَسَوْنَا" instead of "wa" ("and"). Therefore, the creation of bones is explained as "bones covered with flesh". That means they are created together from embryonic lump.

Relying only on the English translations won't help you debate contents of the Qur'aan.
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
What would you consider to be a book "like" the Quran?
A book that is claimed as a revelation from God, and is then widely accepted as a revelation from God.

If it is not accepted as such, you fail.
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Old 07-23-2017, 07:53 AM
 
4,436 posts, read 1,667,835 times
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Dr. Gary Miller, an anti-Islamist who spent years in deep study of Quran, Islamic fatih, and the life of the prophet (saw) to find faults, problems and loop holes in order to debate with Sheikh Deedat.

And all of a Sudden, one day Dr. Miller accepted Islam.

He was asked what inspired you?
Dr. Miller replied, Quran, chapter 111


Now, all of our friends here who are questioning the miraculous nature of Quran, go ahead and read the translation of this chapter and see if you can figure it out.

1. May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.

2. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.

3. He will enter into a blazing fire.

4. And his wife too, carrier of firewood.

5. There is a rope of palm fiber in her neck.

Last edited by GoCardinals; 07-23-2017 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:51 AM
 
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1,698 posts, read 1,500,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse in Arabic is quite accurate.

If you think that it is something borrowed from Aristotle or Galen then all you have to do is borrow from them or any other such source, write 10 chapters like the chapters of the Qur'aan, and claim it to be message from God. See how far it will get you as a messenger of God!

As I stated, the statement in the Arabic Qur'aan is quite accurate. It doesn't say that bones were created (brought into existence) first and then flesh was created (brought into existence) and THEN the bones were covered with flesh. No, no, no. That is your assumption from reading the translation in English.

In reality, the stages are described as the semen-drop "النُّطْفَةَ", into a clinging substance "عَلَقَةً", into embryonic lump "مُضْغَةً", into bones covered with flesh "فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا". When it tells you about the bones "عِظَامًا", it immediately uses the resumption particle "fa" with "فَكَسَوْنَا" instead of "wa" ("and"). Therefore, the creation of bones is explained as "bones covered with flesh". That means they are created together from embryonic lump.

Relying only on the English translations won't help you debate contents of the Qur'aan.
Once again, the entire premise of this thread is for someone to provide good, verifiable evidence that the Quran is the "word of God". I do not have to provide evidence that it _isn't_ the word of God.

I do not know what is meant by the notion of "10 chapters like the chapters in the Quran". I see no reason to believe that the Quran is anything special in terms of literature aside from the fact that it is a religious book. If the Quran were an absolute masterpiece, that would not mean that Muhammad wrote it himself, nor would it mean that a masterpiece even conceived by Muhammad, could only have come from God. I see nothing special in the Mormon Book of Mormon as a piece of literature, which was also supposedly from God. But it was stated earlier that the Quran must surely be from God given it had references to embryology. Those references are technically incorrect. Since you mentioned semen production, the Quran stated that semen is produced somewhere in the back area, perhaps the kidneys or in that area. Again, that is incorrect. But as I have tirelessly tried to point out, even if it were not incorrect, that would not by any stretch of the imagination mean that the Quran came to Muhammad from God, through an archangel.

Let me try an analogy... Imagine there is a star called Gaklux that is seen as sacred by a people called the Newars. Their sacred city is Newark. Every year on July 15th the star is straight over Newark at midnight. Their prophet, Muldoon, was born in the village of Newark on July 15th 1703, or so it is alleged. Muldoon would stare at the star Gaklux and the star would relay to him information from god which Muldoon would chant. This information became The Book of Muldoon. What would it take for you to believe that God was communicating through a star with Muldoon thus compiling the Book of Muldoon? If Muldoon had alleged proclaimed something like "the leaves of trees receive the life carried by the sun, and it makes the tree grow", would that enough to convince you that God had spoken to Muldoon? The sunlight is required for trees to grow so Muldoon is at least somewhat correct. Should Muldoon be hailed as a prophet and should the Book of Muldoon be proclaimed as the true word of God?

Here is how you, or any rational person should analyze this story or for that matter, the Quran's story of embryology. First, we do not know where Muldoon got this information. Did he speak to some early 18th Century biologist who might have had some knowledge on such things? We do not even know for sure if Muldoon wrote the verse or it was composed by someone else. Such possibilities would be far better explanations when compared to getting such information from god through a star. Secondly, it isn't information that a person, even Muldoon, could not have acquired through natural means. Also, the sun alone doesn't actually make the tree grow. It is one factor. And it is also possible that the entire verse was a metaphor that just happens to come close to something scientifically accurate. Point is: no rational, objective person would conclude that such a story verified that Muldoon, or Muhammad, had received the word of god.
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Old 07-23-2017, 04:43 PM
 
1,886 posts, read 1,662,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Once again, the entire premise of this thread is for someone to provide good, verifiable evidence that the Quran is the "word of God". I do not have to provide evidence that it _isn't_ the word of God. .
there are too many evidences and if any one who has a planned intention to reject all of them, he will create any interpretation and justification about them to relieve his heart,
just like those who do not believe that we were existed by Allah the only god, they justify their existence by creating a theory called evolution.
.
Quote:
I see nothing special in the Mormon Book of Mormon as a piece of literature, which was also supposedly from God.
.
The Quran is the final holy book from Allah and Mahammad is the final messenger from Allah

there are no holy book and no prophets after The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and there will never be (except Jesus , he will return to the earth, and that will be one of the big signs for the countdown for resurrection day)

and if any one claims or claimed that he is a Prophet , he is imposter or under illusion or fake or any thing else

Allah did not leave us without guidance regarding this matter
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you,
but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets
and Allah is ever Aware of all things. The Holy Quran .
.
Quote:
Let me try an analogy... Imagine there is a star called Gaklux that is seen as sacred by a people called the Newars. Their sacred city is Newark. Every year on July 15th the star is straight over Newark at midnight. Their prophet, Muldoon, was born in the village of Newark on July 15th 1703, or so it is alleged. Muldoon would stare at the star Gaklux and the star would relay to him information from god which Muldoon would chant. This information became The Book of Muldoon. What would it take for you to believe that God was communicating through a star with Muldoon thus compiling the Book of Muldoon? If Muldoon had alleged proclaimed something like "the leaves of trees receive the life carried by the sun, and it makes the tree grow", would that enough to convince you that God had spoken to Muldoon? The sunlight is required for trees to grow so Muldoon is at least somewhat correct. Should Muldoon be hailed as a prophet and should the Book of Muldoon be proclaimed as the true word of God?

Here is how you, or any rational person should analyze this story or for that matter, the Quran's story of embryology. First, we do not know where Muldoon got this information. Did he speak to some early 18th Century biologist who might have had some knowledge on such things? We do not even know for sure if Muldoon wrote the verse or it was composed by someone else. Such possibilities would be far better explanations when compared to getting such information from god through a star. Secondly, it isn't information that a person, even Muldoon, could not have acquired through natural means. Also, the sun alone doesn't actually make the tree grow. It is one factor. And it is also possible that the entire verse was a metaphor that just happens to come close to something scientifically accurate. Point is: no rational, objective person would conclude that such a story verified that Muldoon, or Muhammad, had received the word of god.
we judge things according to the guidance of Allah that he gave it us through his final book and final messenger.
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Old 07-23-2017, 10:01 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,654,308 times
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Shakespeare is better than the Quran!

Oh and this 360 joint crap see this:

Roughly 850 years before the time when Muhammad claimed prophethood, we are told that the following was taught in Chinese philosophy:

In the Springs and Autumns of Lü Pu-wei (Lü shih ch'un-ch'iu, ca. 239 B.C.), ...

The next two examples of relations between the cosmos and the body are perhaps two centuries earlier, and are more general. They come from Lü shih ch'un-ch'iu. They are not particularly early in the history of microcosmic correspondences, but rather exhibit their full development in philosophical writing.

Human beings have 360 joints, nine body openings, and five yin and six yang systems of function. In the flesh tightness is desirable; in the blood vessels (hsueh mai) free flow is desirable; in the sinews and bones solidity is desirable; in the operations of the heart and mind harmony is desirable; in the essential ch'i regular motion is desirable. When [these desiderata] are realized, illness has nowhere to abide, and there is nothing from which pathology can develop. When illness lasts and pathology develops, it is because the essential ch'i has become static. ...

(Nathan Sivin, State, Cosmos, and Body in the Last Three Centuries B.C. [For Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies]

According to Nathan Sivin, this was already common teaching in the third century B.C., i.e. it is apparently documented even earlier. We find that this correspondence is also part of (at least some forms of) Buddhism (Buddha lived roughly 500 B.C.).

Buddhism and the Heaven-Human Relationship

Under Emperor Wu of the Han dynasty, Confucianism was adopted as the official creed of the state. The most influential Confucian thinker of the time was Dong Zhongshu (195?–105? BCE), who in his writings argued clearly and forcefully for the view that Heaven and human beings combine to form a single entity.


In his Chunqiu fanlu or Luxuriant Gems of the Spring and Autumn Annals, in the section entitled "How human Beings Second the Numbers of Heaven," he states: "Human beings have 360 joints because this exactly matches the number of Heaven’s [days]. Their bodies, their bones and flesh, match the thickness of the earth. Their ears and eyes are bright and keen like the qualities of the sun and moon, and in their bodies there are hollows and veins like the configurations of the rivers and valleys."


And in speaking of the forces of the yin and yang, he says: "Heaven too has its moods of joy and anger, and its heart filled with sorrow or delight which second those of human beings. In the ways in which these likenesses match up, we see that Heaven and human beings are one."


These passages are clear examples of the concept of "Heaven and humankind as one" in the thought of Dong Zhongshu. ... (Dialogues on Eastern Wisdom

Last edited by Shiloh1; 07-23-2017 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 07-23-2017, 10:08 PM
 
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Don't waste your time with these folks people!
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:36 AM
 
3,170 posts, read 1,051,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Once again, the entire premise of this thread is for someone to provide good, verifiable evidence that the Quran is the "word of God". I do not have to provide evidence that it _isn't_ the word of God.
The Qur'aan is not about the things seen (verifiable evidence) but more about the things unseen (ghaib). It is a book about "faith" rather than "science".

In order to actually prove (with verifiable evidence) that the Qur'aan is "word of God", one has to first prove that there is "God". Therefore, you are looking for someone to change "belief"/"spirit" ("faith") into "fact"/"material".

"Faith" is not about "seen" but about "unseen".
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:51 AM
 
3,170 posts, read 1,051,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Shakespeare is better than the Quran!
The Qur'aan is neither a poetry book nor a science book.

[26.224] And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them.

[36.69] And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Qur'aan.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:09 AM
 
1,886 posts, read 1,662,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Dr. Gary Miller, an anti-Islamist who spent years in deep study of Quran, Islamic fatih, and the life of the prophet (saw) to find faults, problems and loop holes in order to debate with Sheikh Deedat.

And all of a Sudden, one day Dr. Miller accepted Islam.

He was asked what inspired you?
Dr. Miller replied, Quran, chapter 111


Now, all of our friends here who are questioning the miraculous nature of Quran, go ahead and read the translation of this chapter and see if you can figure it out.

1. May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.

2. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.

3. He will enter into a blazing fire.

4. And his wife too, carrier of firewood.

5. There is a rope of palm fiber in her neck.



this clip is full of evidences including the evidence extracted from chapter 111



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpb0F_aVt0s
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