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Old 07-24-2017, 10:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'aan is neither a poetry book nor a science book.
Exactly! That's why it sucks compared to Shakespeare.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Qur'aan is neither a poetry book nor a science book.

[26.224] And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them.

[36.69] And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Qur'aan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Exactly! That's why it sucks compared to Shakespeare.
You didn't understand; word of God can't be compared with word of a man.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You didn't understand; word of God can't be compared with word of a man.
I understand fine, the burden is on you to show that it is the word of God and not man.

My response against the claim that nothing can compare to it was that Shakespeare was better and you responded that it was not a science or poetry book which I said exactly - that is why it is better, at least a couple reasons, there are more.

Then you just asserted, without justification, that the Quran is God's word. Do you see the problem here?

What I see in Shakespeare is better than what I see in the Quran. Until you can demonstrate that it is God's word I am just comparing to works of men.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
this clip is full of evidences including the evidence extracted from chapter 111



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpb0F_aVt0s

Yes! exactly.

Had this chapter been revealed after the death of Abu-Lahab then perhaps it wouldn't be a miracle.

But here, you have a prophecy against a living person who had 10 long years to say a simple sentence and prove the Quranic prophecy wrong.

All he had to do was to say, "OK I accept Islam - and there you go, the prophecy in your book has been proven wrong".

But since Quran IS the word of God, Abu-Lahab could have NEVER uttered that short sentence from his mouth when he had no bearing on him of any sort.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post

Yes! exactly.

Had this chapter been revealed after the death of Abu-Lahab then perhaps it wouldn't be a miracle.

But here, you have a prophecy against a living person who had 10 long years to say a simple sentence and prove the Quranic prophecy wrong.

All he had to do was to say, "OK I accept Islam - and there you go, the prophecy in your book has been proven wrong".

But since Quran IS the word of God, Abu-Lahab could have NEVER uttered that short sentence from his mouth when he had no bearing on him of any sort.
I'm not sure if you think the speaker gives good evidence, let alone proves anything. The first thing you have to assume is that some supernatural event or occurrence was an event or occurrence that did not actually take place. This would include phenomena such squirrels that do calculus, miniature devils sitting on shoulders, and of course archangels speaking to people. For the unbiased, rational person these things require evidence for belief. So for the unbiased, rational person, that kind of ends any idea that Muhammad actually conversed with an archangel. All the rest of the stuff said in that video is really so explainable and unconvincing it is surprising someone in the audience doesn't make an issue out of it. Maybe it was a small audience or it was 100% devout, unquestioning Muslim. Maybe someone came up to the speaker afterwards and said that there really isn't any reason to believe that Muhammad couldn't, or didn't make it all up, or, Muhammad was suffering from auditory hallucinations. About 10% of the population has occasional auditory hallucinations. Muhammad could have had some full psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia. Lying and hallucinations are known to exist and are fairly common. They make for rational, logical explanations. And rational, logical explanations win-out over the unverified supernatural explanations.
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Old 07-26-2017, 05:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I understand fine, the burden is on you to show that it is the word of God and not man.
No; you still do not understand that the Qur'aan is not a poetry book that you compare it with Shakespeare. It is a religious book that is believed to be "word of God".

Burden of proof to show that the Qur'aan is the word of God is not on me. I am not forcing anyone to accept it as the "word of God".

[69.40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored messenger,
[69.41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;
[69.42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.
[69.43] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.


All I have to do is either believe it to be the word of God or reject it as the word of God. I chose the former. You too have the same opportunity to decide for yourself.

I have made my choice. I will be accountable only for my action. You are free to take the course that you feel fit for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
My response against the claim that nothing can compare to it was that Shakespeare was better and you responded that it was not a science or poetry book which I said exactly - that is why it is better, at least a couple reasons, there are more.

Then you just asserted, without justification, that the Quran is God's word. Do you see the problem here?
Yes, you are comparing Shakespeare with God's word. Shakespeare never claimed that he is delivering God's word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
What I see in Shakespeare is better than what I see in the Quran.
I see babbling brooks in Shakespeare and the words of God in the Qur'aan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Until you can demonstrate that it is God's word I am just comparing to works of men.
That's why there is challenge in the Qur'aan for unbelievers to produce ten chapters like the chapters of the Qur'aan and see if you can promote it as "word of God". You will failbecause those chapters will always be words of a man and will never be accepted as "word of God".
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Old 07-26-2017, 05:09 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Had this chapter been revealed after the death of Abu-Lahab then perhaps it wouldn't be a miracle.

But here, you have a prophecy against a living person who had 10 long years to say a simple sentence and prove the Quranic prophecy wrong.

All he had to do was to say, "OK I accept Islam - and there you go, the prophecy in your book has been proven wrong".

But since Quran IS the word of God, Abu-Lahab could have NEVER uttered that short sentence from his mouth when he had no bearing on him of any sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I'm not sure if you think the speaker gives good evidence, let alone proves anything.
It is quite obvious that you did not understand the point made by GoCardinals about Abu Lahab. To understand that, you had to understand the Qur'aan and the prophecy about Abu Lahab made well before his death (at least ten years before his death).
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is quite obvious that you did not understand the point made by GoCardinals about Abu Lahab. To understand that, you had to understand the Qur'aan and the prophecy about Abu Lahab made well before his death (at least ten years before his death).
To understand what constitutes good evidence one does not necessarily need to know every detail. Written accounts of a prophecy 1300 years ago does not make for valid evidence. Let's say there is a massive boulder precariously perched on a hillside. There is a centuries-old written account that the bolder was placed on that hillside by a man, Morant, who had been given a few minutes of superhuman strength. There is the bolder, and there is a story of why the bolder is there, oddly positioned on the hillside. So, would you believe the written account?

The logical answer is: you shouldn't believe the story is true. It wouldn't matter if Morant was believed to have lived in a nearby village. It wouldn't matter if a billion people believed the story true. It wouldn't matter if there is a penalty for disbelief. If your life is threatened for disbelief, then yes, proclaim that you do believe the story to be true, but an actual belief is not justified to the unbiased person. Supernatural events require valid, credible evidence for a rational person to believe.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
To understand what constitutes good evidence one does not necessarily need to know every detail. Written accounts of a prophecy 1300 years ago does not make for valid evidence. Let's say there is a massive boulder precariously perched on a hillside. There is a centuries-old written account that the bolder was placed on that hillside by a man, Morant, who had been given a few minutes of superhuman strength. There is the bolder, and there is a story of why the bolder is there, oddly positioned on the hillside. So, would you believe the written account?

The logical answer is: you shouldn't believe the story is true. It wouldn't matter if Morant was believed to have lived in a nearby village. It wouldn't matter if a billion people believed the story true. It wouldn't matter if there is a penalty for disbelief. If your life is threatened for disbelief, then yes, proclaim that you do believe the story to be true, but an actual belief is not justified to the unbiased person. Supernatural events require valid, credible evidence for a rational person to believe.
OK, so what is your conclusion about Quran ?
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
OK, so what is your conclusion about Quran ?
There are several possibilities as to how the Quran came into existence. First, as I said in the very first post, it is irrelevant that Muhammad was illiterate. The illiterate can dictate that what he wants written and an artistic scribe could enhance that which is dictated with literary flourishes. In many places the Quran looks like a book where Muhammad needed some support for various policies which he wanted enacted and so conveniently, Allah chipped in with the desired support. I say that because Allah did not speak to an embattled leader in China, or England, or South America. And when viewing the entire world both pre-Muhammad, and post-Muhammad, the problems of Muhammad would be miniscule to a god. Never mind that this is one tiny planet in a massive universe.

So I think either Muhammad made it all up, speaking to Gabriel when he had the need, or urge. Or Muhammad had a psychological problem. There is a movie about the plight of a Nobel-winning mathematician, John Nash who died a few years ago. He suffered from schizophrenia. It manifested itself by Nash seeing and talking to people who were not there, who were fabricated in his own imagination.

Either scenario would be far far more likely than Muhammad was actually receiving the word of God though an archangel.
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