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Old 07-18-2017, 04:59 PM
 
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I was just looking around on YouTube recently when I came upon a vid that announced that the "undeniable miracle and proof of the Quran" was that the Quran came from Muhammad and Muhammad was illiterate. I have heard this statement and its questionable logic a couple of times over the years. So I did an internet search on it and found that it is a fairly common pronouncement. I went back to the YouTube video and made a comment stating that a very simple explanation for the Quran existence, and Muhammad's illiteracy, is that Muhammad simply dictated what he wanted the Quran to say, dictating it to someone literate. That seemed the more plausible explanation when compared to a miracle. Apparently this viewpoint is rarely considered because what ensued was a back-and-forth of several comments where I tried to get through what I thought was my rational explanation. I'm not sure that I made much of a dent.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:42 PM
 
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And how does having a literate scribe change what was spoken? All he did was to write it down, right? He didn't make it. He wasn't ripe and sick and overwhelmed with it, right? Like Muhammad was? When he had this fetus inside of him, to the point that he got fivers and cold sweats and had to wrap himself in blankets and then - it simply burst out of him?
It does not require one to understand what he speaks. One simply is a medium. He can be blind and deaf and speak of light and colors and make great pictures and music.
Not sure I follow your logic.
You ever read Q'Ran by the way? Maybe you should. Just a few chapters. You may reconsider your logic.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
And how does having a literate scribe change what was spoken? All he did was to write it down, right? He didn't make it. He wasn't ripe and sick and overwhelmed with it, right? Like Muhammad was? When he had this fetus inside of him, to the point that he got fivers and cold sweats and had to wrap himself in blankets and then - it simply burst out of him?
It does not require one to understand what he speaks. One simply is a medium. He can be blind and deaf and speak of light and colors and make great pictures and music.
Not sure I follow your logic.
You ever read Q'Ran by the way? Maybe you should. Just a few chapters. You may reconsider your logic.
Do you think that the Quran must be a miracle simply because the book is in written words, and Muhammad was illiterate? That is the "logic" I was referring to: the pronouncement that an illiterate man cannot conceive a book, therefore the Quran is a miracle.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:23 PM
 
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yet, illiterate man did just that - conceived that teaching. And a scribe wrote it down.
con·ceive
kənˈsēv/
verb
verb: conceive; 3rd person present: conceives; past tense: conceived; past participle: conceived; gerund or present participle: conceiving
1.
become pregnant with (a child).

As Muhammad became pregnant with the Word, just like that. A voice spoke in him. A voice he didn't want to hear. Didn't want to go mad. But voice was in him, rumbling and making him to rid of it, and riddance was in spilling it out to others. And in that, he became a mother to this child, his life dedicated.
It was akin to a burning bush.
I am actually not sure what is so miraculous about it. If there were god, the rest is simply normal god's work in whatever form god needs it to be done. If you were to accept god, everything else is blessing, not miracle.
Hope you see my point. There is only one "miracle", that being god itself. The rest is normal. If god were accepted, everything else is accepted. Or, doubt is present and then god is not accpeted as were god is accepted, no doubt is present.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:27 PM
 
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Let me add something.
You speak of premise that Q'ran can possibly be "conceived" by a man. A human.
I speak off premise that Q'Ran actually IS god's word and medium it was provide to humanity by is irrelevant. it could have been a talking rock, for what it is. A burning bush. A bird speaking. It does not really matter, is irrelevant. Relevance is Q'Ran itself, and that is it.
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:10 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Any one (even unable to read/write) can be extremely intelligent and verbal, especially a camel salesman who was the nephew or grandchild of one of the head-honcho priests of the money-collecting city of Mecca. Then this very intelligent and verbal person can say that Ibis (the enemy of Islam/humanity) inspired the whole "miraculous" chapter that says that Angels are male and female and are children of God (and thus deserving of offspring rights). Then their friends can write what they say they memorized from what was rapped from this individual (especially 600 years after seeing the failure AND benefit of Christianity to have actually had Jesus leave any direct writings behind), then years later they can recollect and burn all the copies that don't agree with their updates and that they say are "mistranslation". Even Donald Trump's supporters eat up his words although he himself is not extensively literate and speaks to them at the grammatical and emotional level of someone that hasn't even entered junior highschool.

I've read the Quran, and what it lacks in logic it makes up for in baseless and bald assertions that require either naivety or pre-existent belief. That, and fanning the desperately sad fear of death and need for feelings of power/security that people have. All of them salesman 101 basics, when selling these types of merchandise.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Let me add something.
You speak of premise that Q'ran can possibly be "conceived" by a man. A human.
I speak off premise that Q'Ran actually IS god's word and medium it was provide to humanity by is irrelevant. it could have been a talking rock, for what it is. A burning bush. A bird speaking. It does not really matter, is irrelevant. Relevance is Q'Ran itself, and that is it.
My point was that rational people who have not been indoctrinated into a religious belief will likely need valid, compelling evidence for the supernatural claims of the religion. The same would also be true for something like extraterrestrial landings on Earth. Both are incredible claims. When this need of evidence was put forth concerning Islam and the Quran, put forth on a YouTube channel, the Muslim person stated that obviously the Quran is a miracle given that it exists, in written language, while Muhammad was illiterate. I have heard this "evidence" before over the last few years. I simply find it amazing that it is popular form of "evidence" given that anyone capable of rational thinking could see that it is no evidence whatsoever. There is a paraplegic man living up the street. One day you walk by his house and his lawn is mowed. A man who cannot walk and yet his lawn is mowed. Is that a miracle or is there a non-miracle explanation to it?

I have come across a number of these "proofs" or "evidence" that the Quran is the undeniable word of God. All of them have simple, non-miraculous explanations. I found the one I mentioned the most curious.
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
My point was that rational people who have not been indoctrinated into a religious belief will likely need valid, compelling evidence for the supernatural claims of the religion. The same would also be true for something like extraterrestrial landings on Earth. Both are incredible claims. When this need of evidence was put forth concerning Islam and the Quran, put forth on a YouTube channel, the Muslim person stated that obviously the Quran is a miracle given that it exists, in written language, while Muhammad was illiterate. I have heard this "evidence" before over the last few years. I simply find it amazing that it is popular form of "evidence" given that anyone capable of rational thinking could see that it is no evidence whatsoever. There is a paraplegic man living up the street. One day you walk by his house and his lawn is mowed. A man who cannot walk and yet his lawn is mowed. Is that a miracle or is there a non-miracle explanation to it?

I have come across a number of these "proofs" or "evidence" that the Quran is the undeniable word of God. All of them have simple, non-miraculous explanations. I found the one I mentioned the most curious.
many Illiterate can Produce a Book but that does not make them messengers or prophets
and for the final messenger Mahammad being illiterate that is only one of the evidences.

if you were living in the era of Moses and see him parting the sea by the will of Allah or in the era of Jesus and see the miracles that is mentioned in this verse
(And will make him [('Īsa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe)
or in the era of Mahammad and see him parting the moon or The Flowing of Water from his Hand like a Fountain or any other miracle then I think you will be one of the believers .

but even with these witnessed miracles not every one at that era of the messengers believed.

and now it is being more than 1400 years since Mahammad and Allah told us that Mahammad is the final messenger.

until Mahammad there were more than ten thousands messengers sent to the generations


why don't we get one to help us believe ?


we do not need a new messenger because we have the final Holy Book which is the Quran
and the Quran contains every thing regarding life and contains many miracles to help us believe.


City-Data Forum contains many threads about the miracles of the Quran
and this is one them Selected miracles from the final Holy Book The Quran
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:35 PM
 
10,538 posts, read 15,605,797 times
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Also, it's Ib - L - is, not Ib-is. Ibis is a bird. Iblis is akin to Lucifer in Muslim tradition.

As of the lawn example.
Reminded me.
There was once a devoted older lady full of faith. She, unfortunately, was constantly harassed by an non believer neighbor.
One day, he packed a box with food, set it by her door, knocked on it, and jumped into bushes near by to hide himself.
Lady steps out, finds food, raises her arms and gaze up and says - Thank you, lord, for this gift of food.
Man jumps out and yells, It was I, who bought that food, not your god!
Unperturbed, lady raises arms up again and says - Thank you lord, you even made devil pay for it!
That said - who knows what THAT man neighbor did, right? Or, maybe a simple good Samaritan? Or Scouts? god acts in mysterious ways, you know. One of them is illiterate, incoherent in many places, illogically organized set of not even sure - teachings, sermons, whatever - that is on verge of becoming world greatest religion. Hence, there IS something in it, that makes it appeal to so many hearts and counting.
And that is god's work, a miracle.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:04 PM
 
4,417 posts, read 1,646,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Any one (even unable to read/write) can be extremely intelligent and verbal, especially a camel salesman who was the nephew or grandchild of one of the head-honcho priests of the money-collecting city of Mecca. Then this very intelligent and verbal person can say that Ibis (the enemy of Islam/humanity) inspired the whole "miraculous" chapter that says that Angels are male and female and are children of God (and thus deserving of offspring rights). Then their friends can write what they say they memorized from what was rapped from this individual (especially 600 years after seeing the failure AND benefit of Christianity to have actually had Jesus leave any direct writings behind), then years later they can recollect and burn all the copies that don't agree with their updates and that they say are "mistranslation". Even Donald Trump's supporters eat up his words although he himself is not extensively literate and speaks to them at the grammatical and emotional level of someone that hasn't even entered junior highschool.

I've read the Quran, and what it lacks in logic it makes up for in baseless and bald assertions that require either naivety or pre-existent belief. That, and fanning the desperately sad fear of death and need for feelings of power/security that people have. All of them salesman 101 basics, when selling these types of merchandise.
Hmmm, in the entire history of mankind, how many illiterates have produced such a book that is memorized by 100 n thousands of people, and a verse from that book makes it way to the Harvard Law School's welcome wall?

Can we name 10 such illiterates or camel salesmen who did not know how to read or write but they dictated such a book?

You have at least 7 Billion people to find only 10 such people. Why not take the challenge and prove it wrong? Sounds an easy one, isn't it?
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