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Old 03-17-2008, 11:48 PM
 
44 posts, read 69,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjustice View Post
The poster asked what are the foundations of Islam, which really should not matter which sect you adher to, since the foundations are the same. The five pillars of Islam are the same no matter what sect you belong to.
I take that back, what i meant to say is the five pillars are the same, but other sects might add to that on top of those five. Had to clarify that.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,425 posts, read 44,683,306 times
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From what I understand is that most Imams and clerics of Islam, gee most muslims have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

Your answer is probably going to be "non believers". That makes an awful lot of infidels in this world dont ya think?

Help us here...............

Here is an example directly from your book:

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

The above verse was stated by Mohammed after his first terrorist attack. He and his followers mercilessly massacred four innocent and unarmed merchants at Nakhla in 623 AD. The massacre came in January, the sacred month of Rejeb. Arabs regard this month as a sacred month, when warfare and violence is forbidden. Since this barbaric criminal act was led and sanctioned by the "great" prophet Mohammed, we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents.

Please disect and explain..........

Last edited by desertsun41; 03-18-2008 at 12:19 AM.. Reason: not finished
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:15 AM
 
44 posts, read 69,300 times
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[quote=desertsun41;3173205]From what I understand is that most Imams and clerics of Islam, gee most muslims have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

Well, Iím afraid you are not correct, that is not the case. No mainstream Muslim imam, let alone a prominent one declared a holy war on infidels as you call them. Unless of course you think that Osama bin laden is your regular kind of Muslim imam. In the Muslim world, Osama and his elk have no real influence or following, although a lot of people who hate Islam want to spread this idea.

you say that most Muslims have declared a holy war on non Muslims, that is just amazing, could you show me where these most Muslims are, is there statistics on this, common now, let us get real.


1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.

Yes, that is true if you like to take the verse out of its context. But again, if I want to do that, it is easy to interpret anything I want to. The Quran is very clear on this; this was specific instructions to Muslims in a war against another army. That army was attacking the Muslim army, and Muslims fearing they are weak, and cannot defend themselves against that lot. They were instructed to hold grounds, and have faith, since god will instill terror and fear in the hearts of the opposing combatants. Thus, this was not a cold blooded murder as you claim; it was during a war between two armies, if we can call them that.

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

Again this is instructed at fighting those who are willing to fight you. Some Muslims where not for standing up to those who attack them out of fear for oneself or just the harsh reality of being in a war. Quran says, despite the pain of such wars, you have to stand up for yourselves, even if it seems associated with a lot of pain at this moment.

The above verse was stated by Mohammed after his first terrorist attack. He and his followers mercilessly massacred four innocent and unarmed merchants at Nakhla in 623 AD. The massacre came in January, the sacred month of Rejeb. Arabs regard this month as a sacred month, when warfare and violence is forbidden. Since this barbaric criminal act was led and sanctioned by the "great" prophet Mohammed, we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents.

This incident has nothing to do with the above verse you cited. Also, if you read events according to their historical facts, things will not seem as you want them to look. This incident happened 15 months after the Muslims have been kicked out of Mecca, and they had to flee Mecca fearing for their lives. In the process they were not allowed to take anything of theirs with them. They had to leave everything for their oppressors in Mecca. So this incident was to attack the caravan, coming from quraish (the real looters), and cease everything they were carrying. Things did not go according to plan because the merchants put on a fight, so they were killed. They got killed in a fight, and not as you said.

"we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents"

In other words you are saying, that 1.5 billion people on this earth think that Islam is based on looting and cold blooded murder, yet they still chose to be adherents to this faith. Not only that, but by far it is the fastest growing faith too. emmm, something is missing in this picture.

Please, next time if you want to have a debate or just get informed about certain topics of Islam, Iíd rather you not cut and paste paragraphs from very anti Islamic websites, like you did. I expect you to put a little effort into asking questions yourself, I go through the pain of searching to give you the best possible answer, and put a lot of effort to know about the topic and present it in my own words, I expect you to do the same. using websites such as Islam-terrorism, or the real Islam, or Israel forum let alone not quoting them, does not help carry a healthy debate. thank you and have a nice day.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:44 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,493,776 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjustice View Post
The poster asked what are the foundations of Islam, which really should not matter which sect you adher to, since the foundations are the same. The five pillars of Islam are the same no matter what sect you belong to.
See this is what I meant. You are not a Muslim nor do you know our religion very well. Please let Muslims give proper information instead of you misleading people.

On to the question of foundations of faith for Sunni and Shia.

Sunni believe in the Five pillars of Islam which are as follow.

1. One MUST believe in monothism
2. Must pray five times each day
3. Give to the poor
4. Fast during Holy month of Ramadan
5. Go to Mecca once in your life IF you can afford.

The shia have TWO sets of fundamental tenants, one is the Usool Deen (roots of religion) and Foroo al deen (branches of religion). Some are similar to the Sunni and some are not.

Roots of Religion

1. Monotheism
2. Justice (believe God is just)
3. Prophet hood (believe in all prophets and that Mohammad is the final Prophet)
4. Imamat (believe in the 12 Imams)
5. Resurrection (day of judgment)

Branches of Religion:

1. Five daily prayers
2. Fasting during the holy month of Ramadan
3. Go to Mecca once in life if you can afford
4. tax to help the poor people
5. Khums (tax on wealth)
6. Jihad (striving spiritually NOT war)
7. Enjoining good
8. Forbidding evil
9. Love and respect Prophet Muhammad's lineage
10. disassociate ones self with the enemies of the Prophets lineage

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Old 03-18-2008, 05:47 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,493,776 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertsun41 View Post
From what I understand is that most Imams and clerics of Islam, gee most muslims have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

Your answer is probably going to be "non believers". That makes an awful lot of infidels in this world dont ya think?

Help us here...............

Here is an example directly from your book:

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

The above verse was stated by Mohammed after his first terrorist attack. He and his followers mercilessly massacred four innocent and unarmed merchants at Nakhla in 623 AD. The massacre came in January, the sacred month of Rejeb. Arabs regard this month as a sacred month, when warfare and violence is forbidden. Since this barbaric criminal act was led and sanctioned by the "great" prophet Mohammed, we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents.

Please disect and explain..........
First let me say that the Quran is not like the bible. By this I mean Muslim do not open up to a Chapter or verse and then make up what they think it means. The Quran's revelations were done during certain circumstances in history.

I have to get ready for work but when I have time I will address the rest of your statement (which is extremely inaccurate)
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,107 posts, read 24,913,729 times
Reputation: 11146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
njkate



Word used generally in Persian speaking areas and South east asia to recognize a person of higher learning. Yes like a Rabbi or Priest I would guess. You can also say Mualana. In Africa and Mid East we would say Shaykh, Mu'alim or Imam.

One group "sunni" say that after the Prophet's Death one of his close friends Abu Bakr, then Omar then Uthman followed by the prophets Cousin A'li are the people who should have governed over the Islamic nation after the Prophet's death. The Shi'i (****te) say it should have been twelve direct decedents from the Prophet Muhammad lineage, specifically Ali (the cousin), Hasan (grand son), Hussein (Hasan's brother) etc. etc.

So there is some contention on this point. It doesn't help that certain things are said about these men by either sect (which they hold in high esteem) which causes a ton of friction and fighting. there has also been a LOT of persecution in the past, especially against Shi'a (Shi'a = ****te in western spelling) which doesn't help

Not all but a lot. Goes back to ignorance I think. This is more a social issue and not a religious issue. This does not hold true across the board. rememebr Pakistan, a Muslim dominated country had a female prime minister while America has had no female presidents. So this isn't universely true. In that same country (Pakistan) in the villages you can see some of this mistreatment you hear about, but these are village people who I think are not so well educated and have outdated thinking. Also in UAE women are not so mistreated. Nigeria muslim women have owned businesses and been big contributers to their communities. Again, you go into some of the villages and you can see a stark contrast to that. I guess it could be like going to NYC and seeing a American woman and contrasting her to one of those fundamentalist mormon women.
Thank you for the explanations!!

So mullah would be what...a Farsi word?
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:50 AM
 
44 posts, read 69,300 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
See this is what I meant. You are not a Muslim nor do you know our religion very well. Please let Muslims give proper information instead of you misleading people.

On to the question of foundations of faith for Sunni and Shia.

Sunni believe in the Five pillars of Islam which are as follow.

1. One MUST believe in monothism
2. Must pray five times each day
3. Give to the poor
4. Fast during Holy month of Ramadan
5. Go to Mecca once in your life IF you can afford.

The shia have TWO sets of fundamental tenants, one is the Usool Deen (roots of religion) and Foroo al deen (branches of religion). Some are similar to the Sunni and some are not.

Roots of Religion

1. Monotheism
2. Justice (believe God is just)
3. Prophet hood (believe in all prophets and that Mohammad is the final Prophet)
4. Imamat (believe in the 12 Imams)
5. Resurrection (day of judgment)

Branches of Religion:

1. Five daily prayers
2. Fasting during the holy month of Ramadan
3. Go to Mecca once in life if you can afford
4. tax to help the poor people
5. Khums (tax on wealth)
6. Jihad (striving spiritually NOT war)
7. Enjoining good
8. Forbidding evil
9. Love and respect Prophet Muhammad's lineage
10. disassociate ones self with the enemies of the Prophets lineage
I guess you are being too technical, and again maybe you did not see my second post in that regard. The poster asked what are the foundations of Islam, which means ones that all Muslims would not disagree about; in that regard my answer was accurate. By the way what you mentioned is correct, an easy Wikipedia check will reveal your answer, but again that is not the real issue at hand. the answer should be what would Muslims consider as the foundation of their beliefs, simple. By the way, Except for the 12 imam and khums, both Sunni and shai agree on all what you mentioned, only they differ on what to call it.

I find it extremely insulting for you to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about. What gives you the exclusivity on this topic? Religion is something to be discussed by all, and I do think I have enough knowledge to answer a lot of the average American curiosity about Islam. If I’m wrong, then you should tell me where, but till I do, I expect from you a little bit of respect.

You did not mention which sect of Islam you belong to, and do you really believe that learning about Quran from one (imam/da3eya/scholar) is sufficient to be an expert on the subject. I personally believe, and that is just my opinion that learning on the hands of one person by following him, and taking what he says as facts, has a lot to do with what is wrong with Muslims these days.
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,107 posts, read 24,913,729 times
Reputation: 11146
I find this thread interesting and have more questions to post later.

Let's try and keep it friendly so as to not have it locked
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,493,776 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkate View Post
Thank you for the explanations!!

So mullah would be what...a Farsi word?
I don't speak Farsi so I am not 100% sure and don't want to tell you wrong on that one. I will ask one of my Persian friends and see what he says.
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:24 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,493,776 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjustice View Post
I guess you are being too technical, and again maybe you did not see my second post in that regard. The poster asked what are the foundations of Islam, which means ones that all Muslims would not disagree about; in that regard my answer was accurate. By the way what you mentioned is correct, an easy Wikipedia check will reveal your answer, but again that is not the real issue at hand. the answer should be what would Muslims consider as the foundation of their beliefs, simple. By the way, Except for the 12 imam and khums, both Sunni and shai agree on all what you mentioned, only they differ on what to call it.

I find it extremely insulting for you to say that I donít know what Iím talking about. What gives you the exclusivity on this topic? Religion is something to be discussed by all, and I do think I have enough knowledge to answer a lot of the average American curiosity about Islam. If Iím wrong, then you should tell me where, but till I do, I expect from you a little bit of respect.

You did not mention which sect of Islam you belong to, and do you really believe that learning about Quran from one (imam/da3eya/scholar) is sufficient to be an expert on the subject. I personally believe, and that is just my opinion that learning on the hands of one person by following him, and taking what he says as facts, has a lot to do with what is wrong with Muslims these days.
1. What you said was inaccurate. The foundation of Islam depends on what sect you ask. I don't really care what some person posted on Wikipedia. The fact is if you email Ayat. Khameini, Fadlallah, Sistani (these are shi'a scholars) or whoever you like on this issue, you will get the same answer as far as the foundation of Islam as according to Shi'i beleifs. They all have sites by the way which you can email them questions and they will get back to you. You have to know arabic fluently to contact Ayat. Fadlallah though, his answers will only be in Arabic.

2. Being a expert here isn't really the issue, the issue is giving accurate information.

3. Islam has a system in place for how someone becomes a Imam, Ayatollah, Qadi, Mufti and so on and so fourth. It isn't about what I think that makes a person a scholar or not in a particular system. I am none of these, although I did study under a Mufti for some time.

Anyway, I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, Just want to try and get accurate information out there.

To
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