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Old 10-24-2017, 03:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
correction, i goofed on the math, it is about 3,800 years ago
and 2,400 years later
I wouldn't try to correct it if I were you because you might goof again. And I think you have; again.

This illustrates why there was need for a reminder (of the same message) because people were goofing with what they had already with them. Jesus comes and says to people:

Matthew 23:2-3
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Jesus didn't tell them that they have incorrect religion but that they were not observing it correctly.

Muhammad came a few centuries after Jesus, the Messiah, and delivered the same message of believing in One God and submitting to Him by obeying His commands and taking His guidance. This time the acts of devotion were different from the previous ones but it still meant submitting to One God and not to 3 persons each one a god on his own. Some believed and adopted the new acts of devotion as this was new guidance from God. Others refused to comply with the new guidance. They did not believe in the new guidance. Some of them at the time of new revelation had even tried to silence the new revelation and ended up paying heavy price for their actions of disbelief.

Torah and Injeel given to Moses and Jesus respectively was true guidance and light with which people could see their life path. The Qur'an confirms this. But the Qur'an tells us that they did not observe what they were commanded.

[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Torah, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the verses of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

The same is happening in Muslims too today. Many are not observing the guidance in the Qur'an.
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
i agree that the same message given to all is monotheism, one God.

perhaps since Crstns and Jews already had received the same message of monotheism, about 1,900 years ago for Crstnty, and about 3,200 years ago for Jews; then they may feel that therefore they did not need the same message of monotheism again when Muhamed appeared some 500 years later (for Crstns), or 1,900 years later (for Jews) as they already had monotheism for many many centuries already.
That wasn't their objection at all. There objection was that the later revelations to Jesus and Muhammad were not from God. This is why they had tried to eliminate both Jesus and Muhammad and had killed John the Baptist before them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
perhaps they felt and feel "i love my religion and it serves me well i'm not going to give it up" perhaps it's as simple as "this works for me, so I'm not changing" or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
In the Qur'an, God is not telling them to change their religion of believing One God and obeying His commands but to take the new guidance, and not be the first to reject the new revelation from God.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My verses; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

They could carry on in their religion but denying/rejecting the new revelation from God is opposite of believing in God and obeying His commands. Carrying on with their religion is one matter, rejecting the new revelation from God and opposing it actively is another matter. This is why Muslims do not deny the revelations from God before the revelation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is reminder of what has come before it. It verifies what has come before it and is even guardian over it. It preserves what has come before it. This is far from Jews and Christians who deny the revelation of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Muhamed and the religion known as Islam that grew around his teachings reached many people who did not have monotheism. And it continues to do so to this day.
Islam does mean "submission" and is meant submitting to God by obeying his commands. This submission is no different than in the revelations before the Qur'an. Only the acts of devotion are different in several cases but submitting to God is the same. Acts of devotion are training grounds for one to become better person through pious actions. These actions are for our own benefit one way or the other. God is not in need of our prayers, fasting or sacrifices. God is not in need of any meat from sacrificed animals. These actions help only humans themselves. That's why they are given to different groups of people at different times. They are also designed to test people if they really believe God or not. If God commands some people to have tassels on their garments, it is for a reason. God doesn't need those tassels. People need them so that they do not forget something. The same goes for praying 5 times a day or all day on Saturday. Why believe one guidance and deny the later one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
as you say since you received the message of monotheism through Muhamed you do not need to become a Crstan or a Jew.
That is not the point made. My point is that I believe in all the messages from God before message through Muhammad of the Qur'an, believe in One God and submit to Him. That doesn't make me Muhammadan, Christian or Jew but Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The same holds true for Crstns and Jews. Since they received the message of monotheism already they may also feel as you state they do not need to become Muslims. they are simply different devotions, different expressions of the same message monotheism.
The Jews and the Christians do not believe in the message of monotheism in the Qur'an but Muslims do believe in the message of monotheism given to Moses and Jesus. It just goes to show as to the fundamental status of these three names. Only one of them is not going to change if that group believes in all three revelations, of the Torah, of the Injeel and of the Qur'an.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
... not telling them to change their religion of believing One God and obeying His commands but to take the new guidance, and not be the first to reject the new revelation from God.

....
Regarding the topic of the thread which is inconsistencies in Islam, many people see that as an inconsistency: you have said many times same message nothing new was given, but you also say "new guidance" and "new revelation"

Many people also see it as an inconsistency to be told they "dont have to change their religion" but they should "take the new guidance."

If a person is satisfied and happy with the guidance they have and follow in their own religion in serving the Creator, then they do not see a need to "take the new guidance"

Just like a man happy in his marriage with his own wife. It is not "rejecting" other women to stay faithful to the one wife he has had for a long time.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-24-2017 at 08:11 AM..
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Regarding the topic of the thread which is inconsistencies in Islam, many people see that as an inconsistency:
You are only one person; not many unless you claim to be speaking for "many".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
you have said many times same message nothing new was given, but you also say "new guidance" and "new revelation"
New guidance is in the new revelation. These are not the core message but various acts of devotion. Perhaps you see inconsistency in it when there is no inconsistency. I explain:

Torah was also new guidance and new revelation that Bani Israel had to accept and follow after the exodus. The Bani Israel before the exodus were not following this new guidance and revelation given to Moses. Whether they followed the old guidance and revelation before the exodus or new guidance and the revelation after the exodus, they were believing in One God and obeying His commands (submitting to God).

The difference was that they had to "believe" and follow the new guidance and revelation after the exodus. They couldn't say that we do not want to follow the new revelation or new guidance because we are happy with the old one as it is still submitting to God by obeying His commands.

Why do you think the Israelites had to obey new commands after the exodus? Why do you think that God sent prophet after prophet to the Jews after Moses? No new guidance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Many people also see it as an inconsistency to be told they "dont have to change their religion" but they should "take the new guidance."
It is inconsistency only in the minds which did not understand that the core religion (believing One God and obeying his commands) did not change with new guidance to Moses and new guidance through prophet after prophet in the Israelites, why should it change with new guidance through the prophet Muhammad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
If a person is satisfied and happy with the guidance they have and follow in their own in serving the Creator, then they do not see a need to "take the new guidance"
That's an issue a person will be questioned about if the new guidance is also from the Creator. The Creator will question that person, "why did you refuse to take the new guidance from Me?" What reason will that person have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Just like a man happy in his marriage with his own wife. It is not "rejecting" other women to stay faithful to the one wife he has had for a long time.
Religion is not a wife (or husband for that matter) that one is married to. In other words, this man is not married to Islam but is IN Islam.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
....That's an issue a person will be questioned about if the new guidance is also from the Creator. The Creator will question that person, "why did you refuse to take the new guidance from Me?" What reason will that person have?...
and the answer is because we were told not to.
we were told to not follow other religions and other holy books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
....Religion is not a wife (or husband for that matter) that one is married to. In other words, this man is not married to Islam but is IN Islam.
however for many people we do see it as a marriage, though, and it is seen as being unfaithful.
A happily married man is not "rejecting" or "criticizing" other women, he is simply not interested because he is happy with what he has.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
and the answer is because we were told not to.
we were told to not follow other religions and other holy books.
As for as understand the only religion you were told not to follow is idol-worshiping.

Where does it say in the Torah that you are not to follow any of the new revelations from Him (The Creator)?
Does it say in the Torah that there would be no new messenger or prophet after Moses with new revelation or guidance from the Creator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
however for many people we do see it as a marriage, though, and it is seen as being unfaithful.
A happily married man is not "rejecting" or "criticizing" other women, he is simply not interested because he is happy with what he has.
Well, that is not the case in Islam. It's not a marriage but a way of life; the way I should live my life on earth by believing in One God, taking His guidance, obeying Him, and doing good to other human beings, earthly living being as well as earthly environment in the best interests of continuation of living beings on earth.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:22 PM
 
13,108 posts, read 13,717,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
.... It's not a marriage but a way of life; the way I should live my life on earth by believing in One God, taking His guidance, obeying Him, and doing good to other human beings, earthly living being as well as earthly environment in the best interests of continuation of living beings on earth.
That is a fine way of life, and it is certainly a valid path to God.
As are many other religions also a fine way of life, and a valid path to God.


Thank you for input and discussion on topic and answering questions.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
... the Qur'an confirms that Jsus was the Messiah.
Muslims and Crstns state that JC is the Messiah.
but the Bible view is that when Messiah comes, there are no more prophets, prophecy ends.
so how can Muhamed be a prophet if Messiah already came?

what about this inconsistency?

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-24-2017 at 07:09 PM..
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Muslims and Crstns state that JC is the Messiah.
but the Bible view is that when Messiah comes, there are no more prophets, prophecy ends.
so how can Muhamed be a prophet if Messiah already came?

what about this inconsistency?
That is not inconsistency in Islam but inconsistency in the Bible (between Jewish Bible and Christian Bible).

Jewish people were waiting for a prophet when John the Baptist was prisoned. They had asked him if he is the prophet they are waiting for. John had said, "No". The prophet to come was after him. What they didn't know was that the Prophet was to come from their brethren (Ishmael line). He (singular) was a particular prophet mentioned through Moses in Deuteronomy 18. We know that he was to be a particular prophet as there had been several after Moses in the Israelites after Moses but none after John and Jesus.

The prophecy in the Jewish Bible regarding "no more prophets" after the Messiah, is about the Jewish genealogy (Bani Israel) unless you regard Abraham a Jew too. If you regard Abraham a Jew then it opens up a whole new chapter altogether.

All the prophets mentioned in the Jewish Bible were prophets from Isaac line rather than from their brethren Ishmaelites. They kept coming to straighten the Jews in their conduct by giving them warning after warning. They were reminding them and warning them of the curse promised in the Torah (Deuteronomy 11) if they don't listen and obey the commands from their Creator.

The Messiah (Jesus) was the last one to give them the final warning. After that final warning, there is to be no more prophet to come in the Jewish genealogy. There is to be no more Jewish prophet. And there hasn't been a Jewish prophet for over 2000 years now, and never will after the last one out of them that had given the last warning to them. There is no point in them waiting for another prophet or the Messiah. the Messiah came and went but they never recognized him.
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:05 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,046,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That is a fine way of life, and it is certainly a valid path to God.
As are many other religions also a fine way of life, and a valid path to God.

Thank you for input and discussion on topic and answering questions.
No problem. You are welcome here to ask any question about Islam. I will, God willing, answer your questions to the best of my ability.

The straight path to God is clear:

[4.175] Then as for those who believe in God and hold fast by Him, He will cause them to enter into His mercy and grace and guide them to Himself on a straight path.

[11.23] Surely (as to) those who believe and do good and humble themselves to their Lord, these are the dwellers of the garden, in it they will abide.

[18.30] Surely (as for) those who believe and do good, We do not waste the reward of him who does a good work.

[22.50] Then (as for) those who believe and do good, they shall have forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.

[31.8] (As for) those who believe and do good, they shall surely have gardens of bliss.

[85.11] Surely (as for) those who believe and do good, they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow, that is the great achievement.

[98.7] (As for) those who believe and do good, surely they are the -best of people.

[19.36] And surely God is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the straight path.

Serving God mentioned in [19:36] is serving the purpose for which God had created human beings, to be vicegerent of God on earth, to keep peace on earth, to help the life on earth, to help all living things on earth in the best interests of continuation of life (including humanity) on earth. All actions towards these aims are good deeds.

Individual life on earth is not very long; we are heading fast towards our end on earth. We shouldn't be wasting our precious time on earth in pursuit of vanities and not serving the purpose for which we were created.
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