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Old 10-25-2017, 07:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...

The Messiah (Jsus) was the last one ...
The inconsistency in Islam is in accepting the Crstn view of jc as messiah but rejecting the Crstn view that JC is final revelation no more prophets. If Muhamed recognizes the gospels of Crstnty then those very Gospels say Muhamed is not a prophet.

(Judaism is consistent in saying messiah has not yet come and that prophecy ended 2300 years ago. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
.....Muslims do not deny the revelations from God before the revelation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is reminder of what has come before it. It verifies what has come before it and is even guardian over it. It preserves what has come before it......
Many would also say it is also an inconsistency to say something is guarded and verified and preserved when it is actually contradicted and changed and called corrupt.

Gospels say final revelation is JC no more prophets. Muhamed says he is the final prophet. That is changing not preserving. Judaism says messiah not yet here Quran says messiah already came. That is contradicting not verifying.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-25-2017 at 08:35 AM..
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The inconsistency in Islam is in accepting the Crstn view of jc as messiah but rejecting the Crstn view that JC is final revelation no more prophets.
Your claim here about Islam is not correct.

Islam is not accepting the "Crstn view" or rejecting "Crstn view". Islam is not about any person's view. The Qur'an is not "Crstn view" but a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.

We accept what is revealed in the Qur'an that Jesus was the Messiah.

As for "Crstn view" that JC is "final revelation no more prophets", what is it based on? Perhaps they agree that there would be no more revelations and no more prophets in Israelites after Jesus. In that case, they agree with my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
If Muhamed recognizes the gospels of Crstnty then those very Gospels say Muhamed is not a prophet.
Not even one of the Gospels says that Muhammad is not a prophet. You will have a job finding such a quote about Muhammad in any of the Gospels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
(Judaism is consistent in saying messiah has not yet come and that prophecy ended 2300 years ago. )
How can Judaism say that when there hasn't been any revelation in Judaism since Jesus the Messiah? Hasn't Judaism just made it up? It's about time that Judaism accepts its mistake in not recognizing the Messiah Jesus when he came over 2000 years ago. Jesus was also a prophet as he had prophesied destruction of the Temple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Many would also say it is also an inconsistency to say something is guarded and verified and preserved when it is actually contradicted and changed and called corrupt.
Which "Many"? Where are they?

Where in the Qur'an does it say that it is "guarded", "verified", "preserved" and also "changed" and "corrupted" at the same time?

I am beginning to think that you have very little knowledge about Islam and what the Qur'an says about the previous revelations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Gospels say final revelation is JC no more prophets.
Where in the Gospels?
Could you quote the verses of the Gospels please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Muhamed says he is the final prophet.
God said in the revelation of the Qur'an that Muhammad is the last of the prophets (the Qur'an 33:40).

I have identified the verse of the Qur'an in which God said that Muhammad is the last of the prophets. Now onus on you to identify the verses in the Gospels that say "JC is final revelation" and "no more prophets".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That is changing not preserving.
The Qur'an preserves the truth in the previous revelations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Judaism says messiah not yet here Quran says messiah already came. That is contradicting not verifying.
Judaism hasn't said anything about the Messiah after he came and went.

Judaism had said he hasn't come before he came and not afterwards as there hasn't been any revelation from any prophet in Judaism that the Messiah has not yet come. There has been no more revelation in Judaism after the Messiah Jesus came and went.

Only the Qur'an said that he came and went as it is the only revelation from God that came after Jesus.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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It should be pointed out that Christianity defines Messiah differnt from the way Islam and Judaism define it. Which is as "Annointed Messenger/Prrophet" Christianity defines it as "Savior"
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It should be pointed out that Christianity defines Messiah differnt from the way Islam and Judaism define it. Which is as "Annointed Messenger/Prrophet" Christianity defines it as "Savior"
I think Christianity just moved to the word "Savior" by translating the Greek word "Soter" ("Savior"). It is "the Christ" that is "the Messiah" ("Christos" in Greek).

Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior (soter) has been born to you; he is the Messiah (Christos/Christ), the Lord (kyrios).

The same in John 4:42. Therefore, even in Christianity "the Messiah" is "Christ" ("Christos") or the anointed messenger/prophet but they have also called him Savior which does not mean Christ or Christos in Greek root word but "soter" in the above two verses of the Gospels.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:32 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...The Qur'an preserves the truth in the previous revelations....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It should be pointed out that Christianity defines Messiah differnt from the way Islam ..... define[s] it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...We accept what is revealed in the Qur'an that Jesus was the Messiah.
Quran says JC is Messiah, but defines Messiah differently than Crstns do. Either the New Testament account of JC is true or Muhamd’s account is true. Since they contradict each other, they both can’t be true. JC is rather insistent that he is the Son of God, and the Quran is rather insistent that he is not. Quran utterly rejects the Crstan belief in the trinity.

1 John 2:22-23
"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

what's interesting about that quote (if you reject son of God, then you reject God) is that it sounds just like what people on this thread have said about if you reject Mhamed then you forfeit your monotheism. each insist on a "package deal" (must accept son of God, must accept Mhamd).

Islam not only denies the Son, it brands belief in the Son as the worst of all possible sins. So the central belief of Crstns is, from the Islamic point of view, the greatest sin. it can hardly be "preserves the truth in previous revelations" to reject and change the central revelation of Crstnty.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-25-2017 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:25 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
...what's interesting about that quote (if you reject son of God, then you reject God) is that it sounds just like what people on this thread have said about if you reject Mhamed then you forfeit your monotheism. each insist on a "package deal" (must accept son of God, must accept Mhamd).
regarding the "package deal," both Islam and Crstnty each require an "adjunct" to God as a condition or prerequisite for believing in God. unless you accept the adjunct in the package deal, they say it is "wrong" or "not correct" or "not the truth" or "not obeying God."

John 14:6
"JC answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

sounds a lot like what people on this board are saying, no one is "obeying God" unless they accept Muhamed.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-26-2017 at 12:39 AM..
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
regarding the "package deal," both Islam and Crstnty each require an "adjunct" to God as a condition or prerequisite for believing in God.
No. This is where you are completely wrong about Islam.

The Qur'an chapter 2 begins with :

[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who are conscious (of God).
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend (in charity) out of what We have given them.
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
[2.5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall have salvation.

The real package deal here is believing in what has been revealed from God and believing in unseen God.

[2.153] O you who believe! Seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.

The verse does not say that we have to go through Muhammad or Jesus to get to God. The verse says that God is with the patient.

[50.16] And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.

God is closer to man than anyone else is.

[3.144] And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

Muhammad has passed away and the believers are still believing in God. The day Muhammad had passed away, Abu Bakr had stood up in the mosque and said to everyone, "if you were worshiping Muhammad, know that he has died, but if you were worshiping God then know that God is ever-living.

We worship God; not Muhammad. Muhammad's duty was only to deliver the message.

[5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[29.18] And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message).

[13.40] And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

That is the belief in Islam about Muhammad. He was a messenger and his duty was to deliver the message. His duty was not to make us go through him to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
unless you accept the adjunct in the package deal, they say it is "wrong" or "not correct" or "not the truth" or "not obeying God."

John 14:6
"JC answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

sounds a lot like what people on this board are saying, no one is "obeying God" unless they accept Muhamed.
This is why I had asked you that question about Moses. Can you accept the Torah without accepting Moses as the messenger?

You failed to answer the question because you too have the same adjunct in the package deal. Take out Moses and you have no Torah.

In Islam, Muhammad's duty was to deliver the message. Our duty is to understand the message from God and submit to God by obeying the commands from God in the message and taking the guidance from God in the massage.
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Quran says JC is Messiah, but defines Messiah differently than Crstns do. Either the New Testament account of JC is true or Muhamdís account is true.
You failed to understand Luke 2:11 that I had quoted. Even in Christianity the Messiah is Christ/Christos and not "soter" ("savior") but they (Christians) have ADDED the words "Savior", "God" and "Son" with "the Messiah" and made a pudding with all mixed together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Since they contradict each other, they both canít be true. JC is rather insistent that he is the Son of God, and the Quran is rather insistent that he is not. Quran utterly rejects the Crstan belief in the trinity.
Not even once did Jesus say with his own mouth that he is begotten Son of God. The Qur'an has got it spot on. God does not have son. daughter, wife, husband, father or mother. Luke says that Adam was son of God. So how many sons in the Bible did God have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
1 John 2:22-23
"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

what's interesting about that quote (if you reject son of God, then you reject God) is that it sounds just like what people on this thread have said about if you reject Mhamed then you forfeit your monotheism.
You are making it up about rejecting Muhammad and rejecting monotheism. Who said so?


Monotheism existed before Muhammad. When you reject Muhammad as messenger of God, you reject revelation from God through Muhammad. That's all. This is the same as if you reject Moses you reject the message of Torah from God through Moses. You can't say that you reject Moses but accept the Torah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Islam not only denies the Son, it brands belief in the Son as the worst of all possible sins. So the central belief of Crstns is, from the Islamic point of view, the greatest sin. it can hardly be "preserves the truth in previous revelations" to reject and change the central revelation of Crstnty.
You misunderstand once more. Agreeing with whatever the Christians have written long after Jesus is not revelation from God. Thus previous revelations means actual revelations from God. These are preserved; not the sayings of the later men like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or Paul. Not everything that they have said was said by Jesus as revelation from God.

[4.171] O followers of the Book (previous revelations)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

That is preserving the truth in the previous "revelations". God is One and not three.

The same way, the real previous revelation of the Torah is also preserved instead of whatever was added after the Babylonian captivity. The revelation of Torah was sent through Moses. But Moses wrote nothing after he had died. Do you really believe that Deuteronomy 34 is revelation from God that was given to Moses?

[the Qur'an 10.37] And this Qur'an is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

[the Qur'an 12.111] In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.

[the Qur'an 46.12] And before it the Book of Moses was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

We do believe that there were revelations from God to both Moses and Jesus. Those revelations are not preserved word by word as the books were re-written after the Babylonian captivity and long after Jesus had been preaching. A lot of truth of those revelations still remain in the re-written books or later written books. That doesn't mean that every word found in these books was revelation from God. The Qur'an verifies what was revelation from God before the revelation of the Qur'an. Trinity was not from God. Monkery (monasticism) was not from God. It was invented later on. This is how the Qur'an verifies what was revealed before and what was not revealed before but has been invented.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...... You are making it up about rejecting Muhammad and rejecting monotheism. Who said so?....
Several posts on this thread: post #63, #86, #58, #77, #92


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It means rejecting the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent and effectively rejecting their own belief in One God and obeying commands from Him (God). It means rejecting submission to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...This is the path taken by both Jesus and Muhammad. You reject this path. You reject them and their path and by doing so you reject path to God. ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
...Someone who follows one of those religions is indeed in a good path, but rejecting knowingly a religion/prophet is another thing....those who clearly heard about Islam yet rejected it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is possible for a Christian or Jew to reject the person they believe Muhammad(saws) to be, they can not reject his message of monotheism and still be either
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...denying/rejecting the new revelation from God is opposite of believing in God and obeying His commands. ....
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:47 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
Reputation: 9156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
....In Islam, Muhammad's duty was to deliver the message. Our duty is to understand the message from God and submit to God by obeying the commands from God in the message and taking the guidance from God in the massage.

The central statement of faith in Islam (shahada) is a package deal both God and Muhamed.
only God and Muhamed is prpht

The central statement of faith in Judaism (shema) is God only.
god Is one

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-26-2017 at 08:04 AM..
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