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Old 10-26-2017, 08:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Several posts on this thread: post #63, #86, #58, #77, #92
None of them say, "rejecting Muhammad mean rejecting monotheism".

If you reject the person called Muhammad, and you do, you still can't and are not rejecting monotheism.

I think you are looking for something in these posts but you can't find it so you just imagine it is there.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The central statement of faith in Islam (shahada) is a package deal both God and Muhamed.
only God and Muhamed is prpht
First, it is not prpht but messenger.

Second, Shahada (Witnessing) is not the First Article of Faith in Islam but it is Tawheed (Monotheism or Oneness of God). It is stated in several verses of the Qur'an (2:163, 21:108, 29:46, 37:4). And I haven't mentioned the whole chapter in the Qur'an on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The central statement of faith in Judaism (shema) is God only.
god Is one
Yes, I am well aware of it (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Then came the Messiah Jesus who said the same thing:

‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29).

And so did Muhammad deliver the same message of Taweed (the Qur'an 2:163, 21:108, 29:46, 41:6).

[37.4] Most surely your God is One.

And I have left out the whole chapter of the Qur'an on Tawheed (112). Would you like to read more about Tawheed?

First Article Of Faith
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Old 10-26-2017, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
First, it is not prpht but messenger.....
so now you are saying that Muhamed is not a prophet?


this Islam website says:
The shahada is the name of the Islamic creed. It is the Muslim declaration of belief in the oneness of God and acceptance of Muhammad as God’s prophet.

http://islampillars.com/hello-world/

Shahada carries several conditions as well:
  • To believe in the prophet and in whatever he said and conveyed in his message as the seal of the prophets.
  • To obey him in whatever he commanded.
  • To stay away from or avoid whatever he commanded Muslims not to do.
  • To follow or emulate him in our ʿibādah (عبادة; worship), ʾaḫlāq (أخلاق; manners), and way of life.
  • To love him more than you love yourself, your family and anything else in this world.
definitely a package deal. must obey Muhamed, and must love Muhamed more than anything else in this world.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-26-2017 at 06:18 PM..
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:13 PM
 
4,412 posts, read 1,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The central statement of faith in Islam (shahada) is a package deal both God and Muhamed.
only God and Muhamed is prpht

The central statement of faith in Judaism (shema) is God only.
god Is one
This package deal is interesting.

Are we saying that one can be Jewish without believing in Moses?
Or one can be Jewish without believing in Torah?
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This package deal is interesting.

Are we saying that one can be Jewish without believing in Moses?
Or one can be Jewish without believing in Torah?
neither Torah nor Moshe are mentioned in the shema.
only God
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
neither Torah nor Moshe are mentioned in the shema.
only God
Torah was delivered by Moshe the messenger. You would have no Torah, no Deuteronomy 6:4 and no Shema without Moshe. Reject Moshe and you reject the whole Torah including the Shema. That's what the golden calf worshipers did before Moshe had delivered the Torah.
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Old 10-27-2017, 04:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
so now you are saying that Muhamed is not a prophet?
Why do you say that I am saying what I am not even saying?

I had pointed out to you that it is "messenger" ("rasul" in Arabic) in the Shahada and not "prpht". I did not say that Muhammad is not a prophet.

Now the question you need to ask is, why don't we say in the Shahada that Muhammad is a prophet instead of saying Muhammad is messenger?

What is the difference between "messenger" and "prophet"? Once you understand the difference, you will understand why we testify (witness) that Muhammad is messenger of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
this Islam website says:
The shahada is the name of the Islamic creed. It is the Muslim declaration of belief in the oneness of God and acceptance of Muhammad as God’s prophet.

Shahada – Islam Pillars
You will notice that even the website has made mistake about Shahada. It is saying "God's prophet" whereas in the Shahada it is "messenger of God".

Now about your misunderstanding about what we were discussing here. We were discussing "monotheism" (belief in One God). We were not discussing belief in what we are to DO (Islam). "Five Pillars of Islam" is what we DO.

Like Ten Commandments are sum of what you are not to do and what you are to do. Then you have 613 mitzvat (commandments).

Then you have Shema. Shema too is part of the 613 commandments.

Shema on its own is based on what you "believe" rather than what you DO or are not to DO. Stealing is DOING something. Belief in One God is not something you DO but "believe".

The same way, there is a set of things we DO and a set of faith/emaan in which we believe in. The name people have given to the former is "Five Pillars of Islam" and to the latter "Six Articles of Eeman" (Faith). Islam means "submission". So they call one "five Pillars of submission". Submission is done practically. Therefore what they are to DO is condensed in the "Five Pillars of Islam" (like 10 Commandments) despite there being many more things/actions we have to do (like 613 commandments). But Shema like Tawheed is something that is belief. Tawheed is the overriding belief

Thus Shahada or witnessing/testifying is something that is DONE practically. The "belief" or "faith" part is in a different set than "Five Pillars of Islam". These are "Six Articles of Faith". In these Six Articles, you will see what we believe in. Tawheed is at the top, the number one belief. This cannot be compromised and that's why it is pure monotheism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Shahada carries several conditions as well:
  • To believe in the prophet and in whatever he said and conveyed in his message as the seal of the prophets.
  • His duty, according to the message he delivered (the Qur'an), was only to deliver the message. It is clearly stated in the Qur'an.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
    To obey him in whatever he commanded.
    Everything he commanded was actually commanded by God. He was merely to "SAY" ("QUL" in Arabic) what God had commanded him to SAY. There are more than 160 verses in the Qur'an that begin with "QUL" ("SAY"). Other than that, he was not to command anything from himself. He had told his adopted son Zaid not to divorce his wife but he still did. Muhammad had not commanded Zaid not to divorce his wife in the capacity of messenger but only in the capacity Muhammad the foster father.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
    To stay away from or avoid whatever he commanded Muslims not to do.
    Again, this must be based on the message from Allah. He was not to create his own message in parallel to the message of Allah.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
    To follow or emulate him in our ʿibādah (عبادة; worship), ʾaḫlāq (أخلاق; manners), and way of life.
    Based on the commands and guidance in the Qur'an. He lived all his life in Arabia. We are not to emulate him and also live all our life in Arabia.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
    To love him more than you love yourself, your family and anything else in this world.
    The best way to love him is live life based on the commands and guidance from Allah that Muhammad as messenger had delivered as the message of the Qur'an from Allah. The same was said by Jesus:
If you love me, keep my commands. (John 14:15)
Jesus was not saying anything on his own authority. Commands from Jesus were not commands from himself but were Commands from his God (John 14:10).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
definitely a package deal. must obey Muhamed, and must love Muhamed more than anything else in this world.
Muhammad by name is mentioned 4 times in the Qur'an. Not once we are commanded by God to "obey Muhammad".

What we ARE commanded by God is to "obey Allah and His messenger". This must be understood as one united statement from Allah rather than two separate statements from Allah. Obey Allah and His messenger is obeying whatever is commanded by Allah and is delivered to people by His messenger. Otherwise you cannot obey Allah without hearing from Allah yourself. One does not obey Allah separately and his messenger separately. The messenger was not delivering one message from Allah and another one from himself. There was only one message being delivered by the messenger and that was the one from Allah.

Did Moses have 3000 Jews murdered in one day for worshiping the golden calf or was he commanded by God to kill those 3000 Jews? I believe God commanded him; what do you think?
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Old 10-27-2017, 04:44 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
This package deal is interesting.

Are we saying that one can be Jewish without believing in Moses?
Or one can be Jewish without believing in Torah?
Actually, one is a Jew through genealogy rather than because of Torah or Moses. Those 3000 golden calf worshipers who were killed in one day on the order of Moses were also Jewish.

In Islam, being Muslims is not through any genealogy but through believing and submitting to God.

Last edited by mensaguy; 10-28-2017 at 07:06 AM.. Reason: Removing exgtraneous quote tag
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:05 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...What we ARE commanded by God is to "obey Allah and His messenger". This must be understood as one united statement from Allah rather than two separate statements from Allah.
That is my point exactly.
Package deal. God plus someone else.
Not God only.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-27-2017 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:20 AM
 
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The messenger is not the message.
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