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Old 10-27-2017, 09:36 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That is my point exactly.
Package deal. God plus someone else.
Not God only.
And you ignored the rest of explanation!
That means you failed to understand that there is only One Message (the Qur'an) and not Two Messages.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The messenger is not the message.
I can't believe that an intelligent gardener would make such a simple statement.

The messenger delivered the message. That's why he is messenger and not God who sent the message.

I am sure neither Moses is the Torah nor Muhammad is the Qur'an.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:15 AM
 
8,671 posts, read 3,102,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Quran says JC is Messiah, but defines Messiah differently than Crstns do. Either the New Testament account of JC is true or Muhamd’s account is true. Since they contradict each other, they both can’t be true. JC is rather insistent that he is the Son of God, and the Quran is rather insistent that he is not. Quran utterly rejects the Crstan belief in the trinity.

1 John 2:22-23
"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

what's interesting about that quote (if you reject son of God, then you reject God) is that it sounds just like what people on this thread have said about if you reject Mhamed then you forfeit your monotheism. each insist on a "package deal" (must accept son of God, must accept Mhamd).

Islam not only denies the Son, it brands belief in the Son as the worst of all possible sins. So the central belief of Crstns is, from the Islamic point of view, the greatest sin. it can hardly be "preserves the truth in previous revelations" to reject and change the central revelation of Crstnty.
Hmmm
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:39 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I can't believe that an intelligent gardener would make such a simple statement.

The messenger delivered the message. That's why he is messenger and not God who sent the message.
wisdom is simple.
faith in God is simple.


no adjunct required.
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Old 10-27-2017, 03:09 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
wisdom is simple.
faith in God is simple.

no adjunct required.
Tawheed, Oneness of God is simple; no partner.

[112.1] Say: He, God, is One.

[112.2] God The Eternal/The Absolute/The Self-Sufficient.

[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.

[112.4] And none is like Him.

No adjunct, no partner, no equal, none is like God. This is Tawheed, Belief in Allah, The Only God..
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
... Oneness of God is simple; no partner.
..No adjunct, no partner, no equal, none is like God...

if no partner is required, then this is not necessary:
  • To believe in the prophet and in whatever he said and conveyed in his message as the seal of the prophets.
  • To obey him [the prophet] in whatever he commanded.
  • To love him [the prophet] more than you love yourself, your family and anything else in this world.
if those are required then that is a partner.

that is the inconsistency.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-27-2017 at 07:16 PM..
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:15 PM
 
4,411 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
neither Torah nor Moshe are mentioned in the shema.
only God
So if there wasn't any Moses in existence the belief in shema would be reached to Jews through who? Abraham?

And you still didn't answer my question regarding the package deal.

Can you be a Jew without believing in Moses?
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Old 10-28-2017, 01:29 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if no partner is required, then this is not necessary:
  • To believe in the prophet and in whatever he said and conveyed in his message as the seal of the prophets.
  • To obey him [the prophet] in whatever he commanded.
  • To love him [the prophet] more than you love yourself, your family and anything else in this world.
if those are required then that is a partner.

that is the inconsistency.
Because you are not trying to understand Tawheed, I will now have to use the language you do understand.

  • Jews believed Moses and whatever he said/conveyed in his message as a messenger.
  • Jews obeyed him (Moses) in whatever he commanded.
  • Jews obeyed Joshua after Moses.
That's two partners with God to be obeyed by Jews and you. Is that not inconsistency in and negating shema? You are to obey only God, aren't you?
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:11 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So if there wasn't any Moses in existence the belief in shema would be reached to Jews through who? Abraham?
Abraham was long gone when there was anyone called Bani Israel. They had by then forgotten all about monotheism and idol worshiping had become rampant. Golden calf worshiping right under the nose of their Creator and even documented in the Torah is clear proof how far they had moved away from monotheism of Abraham.

Another proof is that they (in Madina) had aided and abetted the idol worshipers of Mecca to annihilate Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And you still didn't answer my question regarding the package deal.

Can you be a Jew without believing in Moses?
They did believe him and obeyed him when using their swords and killing about 3000 of their own people in one day because of worshiping the golden calf.

Exodus 32:28
The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Talk about inconsistencies!

This what the Messiah had said to them:

Luke 6:41-42
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
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Old 10-28-2017, 07:57 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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it sounds like these quotes (posts #63, #77, and #92) are saying that if a person does not follow the "new revelation" (which includes venerating Muhamed) then they do not believe in God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It means rejecting the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent and effectively rejecting their own belief in One God and obeying commands from Him (God). It means rejecting submission to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is possible for a Christian or Jew to reject the person they believe Muhammad(saws) to be, they can not reject his message of monotheism and still be either
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
... denying/rejecting the new revelation from God is opposite of believing in God and obeying His commands.
The phrases "rejecting belief in God" and "opposite of believing in God" are very clear language. So if 23% of the world is Muslim, then 77% of the world is not Muslim and does not venerate Muhamed, and so you are saying 77% of the world does not believe in God.

however, billions of people among that 77% of the world do believe in God and do have faith in God.

just like in this thread people are in agreement that no human can say someone is going to Hell.
so too, no person can say about someone else that they "don't believe in God" or don't have faith in God

everyone has access to God.
belief in God and faith in God does NOT require a particular religion, nor does it require veneration of a specific individual.

Those may be required in the doctrine creed and religion of Islam, and this is the Islam forum so that is recognized and respected. However to say that others who are not Muslims (such as Crstns, Lakota, Hindus, Druze, Sikh, indigenous, Zoroastrins, Jews to name a few, plus others ) to say that they do not believe in God and do not have faith in the Creator, is not accurate, true, or correct. Nor is it respectful of other religions, other people, and other paths to God.

a person does not have to practice a particular religion to have faith in God and to believe in God.

everyone has access to the Creator regardless of the religion they choose or don't choose.
and regardless of whether they venerate or ignore a particular individual, messenger, or holy book.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-28-2017 at 08:34 PM..
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