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Old 10-29-2017, 08:46 AM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 385,316 times
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Muhammad didn't send his men rade traid caravans?
They said it in the koran, your book...
And one attack took place during the sacred months so muhammad had to invent a new verset 2:217 to justify it...
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
Muhammad didn't send his men rade traid caravans?
They said it in the koran, your book...
And one attack took place during the sacred months so muhammad had to invent a new verset 2:217 to justify it...
Quote the Ayyat about the Caravan attack
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Old 10-29-2017, 09:08 AM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 385,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Quote the Ayyat about the Caravan attack
I give you the number 2:217. Can't you make it by yourself?
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Old 10-29-2017, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
I give you the number 2:217. Can't you make it by yourself?
2:217 has nothing to do with caravan raids. It reads in English as:

They ask you concerning warfare in the holy month. Say, ‘It is an outrageous thing to fight in it, but to keep [people] from Allah’s way, and to be unfaithful to Him, and [to keep people from] the Holy Mosque, and to expel its people from it are more outrageous with Allah. And faithlessness is graver than killing. And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you away from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns away from his religion and dies faithless —they are the ones whose works have failed in this world and the Hereafter. They shall be the inmates of the Fire, and they shall remain in it [forever].



There is nothing in the Qur'an nor any Islamic Scripture that relates to caravan raids. The story about the caravan raid comes from Hishams rendition of Ishaq's biography of Muhammad and was written hundreds of years after Muhammad's death. It is not from Islamic scripture or from Muhammad(saws)
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Old 10-29-2017, 09:43 AM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 385,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
2:217 has nothing to do with caravan raids. It reads in English as:

They ask you concerning warfare in the holy month. Say, ‘It is an outrageous thing to fight in it, but to keep [people] from Allah’s way, and to be unfaithful to Him, and [to keep people from] the Holy Mosque, and to expel its people from it are more outrageous with Allah. And faithlessness is graver than killing. And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you away from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns away from his religion and dies faithless —they are the ones whose works have failed in this world and the Hereafter. They shall be the inmates of the Fire, and they shall remain in it [forever].



There is nothing in the Qur'an nor any Islamic Scripture that relates to caravan raids. The story about the caravan raid comes from Hishams rendition of Ishaq's biography of Muhammad and was written hundreds of years after Muhammad's death. It is not from Islamic scripture or from Muhammad(saws)

2:217 is obviously about a caravan raid.
Muhammad men raid a caravan but it was during the holy month. They came back to muhammad camp and He said this verset.



[8:69]
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

It talk about war booty.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
2:217 is obviously about a caravan raid.
Muhammad men raid a caravan but it was during the holy month. They came back to muhammad camp and He said this verset.



[8:69]
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

It talk about war booty.
Surah 8 and 2 were revealed at different times and revealed to different people for different reasons.

(Surah 2)The greater part of Al-Baqarah was revealed during the first two years of the Holy Prophet's life at Al-Madinah. The smaller part which was revealed at a later period has been included in this Surah because its contents are closely related to those dealt with in this Surah. For instance, the verses prohibiting interest were revealed during the last period of the Holy prophet's life but have been inserted in this Surah. For the same reason, the last verses (284-286) of this Surah which were revealed at Makkah before the migration of the Holy Prophet to AI-Madinah have also been included in it.

(Surah 8) It was revealed in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr, the first battle between Islam and kufr. As it contains a detailed and comprehensive review of the Battle, it appears that most probably it was revealed at one and the same time. But it is also possible that some of the verses concerning the problems arising as a result of this Battle might have been revealed later and incorporated at the proper places to make it a continuous whole. At any rate, in the whole Surah there is nothing that might show that it is a collection of a couple of discourses, that have been patched up together.

8:69 has nothing to do with any Caravan raids It primarily has to do with the Battle of Badr which occurred after the Revelation of Surah 2.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:25 AM
 
Location: france
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So it's justify the raid on city and the kiling of people.

You still not answear the two other point.

And in the hadith, there is mention of Al-Qarada raid.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
So it's justify the raid on city and the kiling of people.

You still not answear the two other point.

And in the hadith, there is mention of Al-Qarada raid.
There are several million hadith. When referring to Hadith it helps to name the compiler, book and number. Not all Ahadith are considered reliable and all are subject to error as they are not "Holy Scripture"

In this case the Hadith is from Sahih Muslim and considered of high authenticity and reliability

Book 019, Number 4330:
It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Umar that the Prophet (may peace be upon him) sent an expedition to Najd and I was among the troops. They got a large number of camels as a booty. Eleven or twelve camels fell to the lot of every fighter and each of them also got one extra camel.
Book 019, Number 4331:
Ibn 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an expedition to Najd and Ibn Umar was also among the troops, and their share (of the spoils) came to twelve camels and they were given one camel over and above that. and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not make any change in it.
Book 019, Number 4332:
It has been narrated by Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent an expedition to Najd, and I (also) went with the troops. We got camels and goats as spoils of war, and our share amounted to twelve camels per head, and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) gave an extra camel to each of us.
Book 019, Number 4333:
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of 'Ubaidullah with the same chain of transmitters.
Book 019, Number 4334:
Ibn Aun said: I wrote to Nafi' asking him about Nafl (spoils of war) and be wrote to me that Ibn 'Umar was among that expedition. (The rest of the hadith is the same.)
Book 019, Number 4335:
A hadith has been narrated by Salim who learnt it from his father and said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) gave us an extra (camel) besides our share of Khums; (and in this extra share) I got a Sharif (and a Sharif is a big old camel).
Book 019, Number 4336:
Ibn Shihab reported: It reached me through Ibn Umar that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave a share of spoils to the troop. The rest of the hadith is the same.
Book 019, Number 4337:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to give (from the spoils of war) to small troops seat on expeditions something more than the due share of each fighter in a large force. And Khums (one-fifth of the total spoils) was to be reserved (for Allah and His Apostle) in all cases.
Book 019, Number 4338:
Abu Muammad al-Ansari, who was the close companion of Abu Qatada. narrated the hadith (which follows).




There was a very fierce animosity between the Muslims and Polytheists. The polytheists had done their best to destroy Islam and failed. The times of the early Muslims in Arabia paralleled the wars the Jews faced.

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Old 10-29-2017, 11:13 AM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 385,316 times
Reputation: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There was a very fierce animosity between the Muslims and Polytheists. The polytheists had done their best to destroy Islam and failed. The times of the early Muslims in Arabia paralleled the wars the Jews faced.
So you admitt, muhammad send many raid and uses materials rewards to motivate his troops. Does it sounds like a peaceful guy for you?

First time I heard a muslim saying hadith aren't holly scripture. Indeed not all are reliable and there are discussion about it. But the "confirm" hadith are holly scripture.

Anyway it still doesn't explain:
How killing thoses people are jutified and conform to the teaching of the previous prophet. Jesus was attacked too, he didn't use violence, he let them killed him. He sacrify his life.


And this part too:
Quote:
* You won't wish the wife of someone else => Muhammad stole and marry his daughter in law...
* You shall not steal => Muhammad attack caravan to stole goods...
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Old 10-29-2017, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
So it's justify the raid on city and the kiling of people.

You still not answear the two other point.

And in the hadith, there is mention of Al-Qarada raid.
As to the other 2 points there is nothing in Islamic Scripture that allows murder or stealing.
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