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Old 10-20-2017, 05:29 AM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 384,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...
I really don't see how this answear to my question who were:

In sura (2:62) it is allow to follow christians and jews fate.
In sura (3:85) it is not allow.

If I get what you try to say is that jews and christians are also muslims. Ok fine, they are muslims.
So why their religion is later forbid by the sura (3:85)?
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Old 10-20-2017, 11:42 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And you still haven't answered my question, who or what is the first one in the heavens and the earth to submit to God/Allah? Perhaps Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
As I'am not a beleiver, the question doesn't have much sens for me.
But I will answear Abraham.
That explains why you do not know the correct answer; you are not a "believer".
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Old 10-20-2017, 12:58 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
I really don't see how this answear to my question who were:

In sura (2:62) it is allow to follow christians and jews fate.
In sura (3:85) it is not allow.

If I get what you try to say is that jews and christians are also muslims. Ok fine, they are muslims.
So why their religion is later forbid by the sura (3:85)?
In order to understand these verses properly, you need to understand:

(a) Who is a "muslim" according to the Qur'an.

(b) What does the word "al-islam" in the verse 3:85 means.

A "muslim" is someone who believes and submits to God by obeying God (keeping the commandments etc.)

The person who submits to God has a religion ("deen" in Arabic). This religion is known as "the submission" ("al-islam" in Arabic).

Therefore, even though Jews and Christians never used to call their religion "al-islam" (because it is an Arabic word), they were still submitting to God by obeying His commands revealed before the Qur'an. In that sense, they were "muslim" and their deen was "islam" but they never called it so because both are Arabic words.

So in reality, Jews and Christians were muslim and their deen was islam but they did not call themselves muslims and they did not call their religion islam.

So it is wrong to think that their religion will not be accepted by Allah as they do submit to Allah.

[2.112] Yes! Whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

[31.22] And whoever submits himself wholly to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others), he indeed has taken hold of the firmest thing upon which one can lay hold; and Allah's is the end of affairs.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:07 PM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 384,193 times
Reputation: 650
So you are saying it's ok from an islamic point of view to be christian or jew?
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:30 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
So you are saying it's ok from an islamic point of view to be christian or jew?
You need to ask them if they believe and submit to Allah. If they do, they are on the right path.

It's ok to be Christian or jew but it is better to be muslim.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:51 PM
 
Location: france
693 posts, read 384,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You need to ask them if they believe and submit to Allah. If they do, they are on the right path.

It's ok to be Christian or jew but it is better to be muslim.

It's ok, but christianisme and judaisme is not islam, it's differents religions, therefore:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritualgood" (Sura 3:85)
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Old 10-21-2017, 01:42 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
It's ok, but christianisme and judaisme is not islam, it's differents religions, therefore:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritualgood" (Sura 3:85)
The names are different but the name "Judaism" or "Christianity" does not mean submission to Allah although that's what is expected of them and that's what they have been doing. They gave the names (Judaism and Christianity) to their religion of submitting to God and obeying His commands either themselves or by the Romans. It is not in their scriptures revealed to Moses and Jesus.

Islam does mean submission to Allah. And is revealed through the Qur'an. That's why it is "Islam" and not Muhamadism or Mahometism.

So read the verse 3:85 in English like this:

"If anyone desires a religion other than the submission (to Allah) he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good"

The word "al-islam" in the verse is Arabic word. I have translated it into English to show what the verse really means.
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Old 10-22-2017, 07:11 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
So you think the word house dosen't describe islam. What is the signification of the word house here? Is it literrally an house?
In arabic :
House = Beit - sometimes the Kaaba is called "Beit Allah" (House of God)
Kaaba = cube

When Solomon built the Temple in Jerusalem it was not the "creation" of Judaism.
Same in Islam the Kaaba is like a Temple for monotheists built by Abraham and Ismael.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
Abraham was the first submitted to god? So is he the first muslim?
Or is it mahomet.
According to the Quran the first man is Adam so it's Adam.

Anyway in the verses it says :

2.127 -128
And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.

Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

The descendants of Abraham in the verse are not just the followers of Islam, but it includes those of his time (monotheists) plus those who followed any guidance from God.
It's a general term which means submission to God. As you know Abraham was not following a particular religion but was just monotheist and he is called Hanif in the Quran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif


Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
"Those who believe [in the Qur.an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).


"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritualgood" (Sura 3:85)
Someone who follows one of those religions is indeed in a good path, but rejecting knowingly a religion/prophet is another thing.

Do christians think muslims will be saved even though we believe in Jesus but with some differences ? Because we don't follow Christianity ?
Do christians think jews will be saved because they already follow Jesus's religion but not Jesus ?
What the texts say and how to interpret them ?


So here the understanding of the Quranic verse may be : Was God talking about people who follows/followed those religions without knowing anything about Islam (or wrong things) ot those who clearly heard about Islam yet rejected it ?
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:05 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
...
Someone who follows one of those religions is indeed in a good path, but rejecting knowingly a religion/prophet is another thing.

.... those who clearly heard about Islam yet rejected it
What do you mean by it is "another thing" ? Tell us specifically what that "another thing is" regarding now in our current time, the Crstns and Jews who have "clearly heard" and reject the religion Islam and reject Muhamed.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:03 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,685,110 times
Reputation: 9156
We are told that Muhamd says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
"... he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire."
This quote seems to say a Crstn or Jew who rejects Muhamd is going to burn in hell.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 10:31 AM..
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