U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:20 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
We are told that Muhamd says:

Originally Posted by truth_teller
"... he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire."

This quote seems to say a Crstn or Jew who rejects Muhamd is going to burn in hell.
First of all, the quote I believe is from hadith book rather than the Qur'aan.

Secondly, it is "belief" with which Muhammad was sent. This "belief" (in One God and obeying His commands) is no different from belief of Christians and Jews. Therefore, anyone rejecting this "belief" with which Muhammad was sent is effectively rejecting belief of Christians and belief of Jews as well.

I personally believe that it is unlikely that Muhammad had said it in exactly the same words as (a) he did not say so to the Jews in Madina who hadn't accepted him as a prophet (that you are going to Hell-Fire) and (b) the final judgment is still to come (on the Day of Judgment) in the hereafter. Such a final Judgment cannot be pronounced in this life by any human and can't be based on belief only but the greater part of it would be based on the weight of someone's bad deeds.

Last edited by Khalif; 10-22-2017 at 11:29 AM.. Reason: missed a few words in copying original quote
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
This quote seems to say a Crstn or Jew who rejects Muhamd is going to hell.
Not quite that simple.

One will not be accountable for that which they do not know for reasons beyond their control nor for that which they are not capable of doing.

The basic message of the Qur'an and the teaching of Muhammad(saws) is "There is Only one God(swt) who has no equals, partners, nor progeny and only He is to be worshiped"

Hell like Heaven is earned through a person's freewill, informed choices
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:35 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
What do you mean by it is "another thing" ? Tell us specifically what that "another thing is" regarding now in our current time, the Crstns and Jews who have "clearly heard" and reject the religion Islam and reject Muhamed.
It means rejecting the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent and effectively rejecting their own belief in One God and obeying commands from Him (God). It means rejecting submission to God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:36 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,693,439 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not quite that simple.

One will not be accountable for that which they do not know for reasons beyond their control nor for that which they are not capable of doing.

The basic message of the Qur'an and the teaching of Muhammad(saws) is "There is Only one God(swt) who has no equals, partners, nor progeny and only He is to be worshiped"

Hell like Heaven is earned through a person's freewill, informed choices
A Crstn or Jew can worship the One God, and at the same time reject Mhamd altogether. Knowingly clearly deliberately through the use of free choice.

What then?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:43 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,693,439 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It means rejecting the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent and effectively rejecting their own belief in One God and obeying commands from Him (God). It means rejecting submission to God.
Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as rejecting belief in God. Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as disobeying God.

They are very different things altogether.

It sounds like you are saying God and Muhamd are a package deal and you can't have one without the other.

It sounds like you are saying a person can only obey God by accepting Muhamd, a person doesn't believe in God unless they accept Muhamd.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 11:49 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
A Crstn or Jew can worship the One God, and at the same time reject Mhamd altogether. Knowingly clearly deliberately through the use of free choice.

What then?
Simple answer would be that God will decide, on the Day of Judgment, what such a Christian or Jew has done.

Why would a Christian or Jew reject the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent when the belief, in One God and obeying His commands, is the same as of Christians and Jews?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 12:01 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as rejecting belief in God. Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as disobeying God.

They are very different things altogether.

It sounds like you are saying God and Muhamd are a package deal and you can't have one without the other.

It sounds like you are saying a person can only obey God by accepting Muhamd, a person doesn't believe in God unless they accept Muhamd.
I am saying "belief" with which Muhammad was sent is the same as belief of Christians and Jews. This means rejecting the belief with which Muhammad was sent is rejecting the belief of Christians and Jews in One God and obeying His commands.

Concentrate on the belief rather than someone's personality, genealogy or nationality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 12:06 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,693,439 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Simple answer would be that God will decide, on the Day of Judgment, what such a Christian or Jew has done.

Why would a Christian or Jew reject the "belief" with which Muhammad was sent when the belief, in One God and obeying His commands, is the same as of Christians and Jews?
Bevause God is the focus.
Not this or that human leader.

A human leader whether it is JC or Muhamed is not required for belief in God. They are helpful. But they are not essential nor can they prevent a person from devotion to God.

Rejecting Muhamd or rejecting JC does not keep a person from God.

God is the focus. Not the human messenger. When the human messenger is given top billing with God then it veers into idolatry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 12:10 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,693,439 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am saying "belief" with which Muhammad was sent is the same as belief of Christians and Jews. This means rejecting the belief with which Muhammad was sent is rejecting the belief of Christians and Jews in One God and obeying His commands.

Concentrate on the belief rather than someone's personality, genealogy or nationality.
I am focused on belief in God.
Muhamed is not required for that. Nor is JC. Nor is any other human leader or teacher.


The belief in one God is the same with Islam, Crstnity, Judaism.

But only Islam says you must accept Muhamd and only Crstnty says you must accept JC. In that regard, no they are not the "same beliefs ."

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 12:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2017, 12:10 PM
 
144 posts, read 107,551 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as rejecting belief in God. Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as disobeying God.

They are very different things altogether.

It sounds like you are saying God and Muhamd are a package deal and you can't have one without the other.

It sounds like you are saying a person can only obey God by accepting Muhamd, a person doesn't believe in God unless they accept Muhamd.

It's said in the Quran that jews and christians are "People of the Book" and it says that muslim men can only take believers women from those 2 religions beside Islam.
So logically it means that they believe in the same God even if they don't believe in Muhammad.


I can't answer to the question "will they go in Hell" because I don't know and because the unforgivable sin is disbelief in God/association (shirk).
We don't know who will have mercy, even for ourselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top