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Old 10-22-2017, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
A Crstn or Jew can worship the One God, and at the same time reject Mhamd altogether. Knowingly clearly deliberately through the use of free choice.
What then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Simple answer would be that God will decide, ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
...We don't know who will have mercy, even for ourselves.
I'm OK with that.
And I agree.
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Old 10-22-2017, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
I am focused on belief in God.
Muhamed is not required for that. Nor is JC. Nor is any other human leader or teacher.
Did God reveal the Torah direct to you or through Moses?
If you don't accept Moses as the messenger, what is your basis for believing the message given through Moses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The belief in one God is the same with Islam, Crstnity, Judaism.

But only Islam says you must accept Muhamd and only Crstnty says you must accept JC. In that regard, no they are not the "same beliefs ."
If belief in One God is the same in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, how did this belied reach the golden calf worshipers and the idol worshipers of Mecca?

Can you reject Moses as messenger and still believe in the Torah?
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Old 10-22-2017, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Did God reveal the Torah direct to you or through Moses?
If you don't accept Moses as the messenger, what is your basis for believing the message given through Moses?


If belief in One God is the same in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, how did this belied reach the golden calf worshipers and the idol worshipers of Mecca?
Can you reject Moses as messenger and still believe in the Torah?
the One God reveals Himself to all people in all places across all time, through different messengers. God is the same, the messengers are different. the message (of God) is what is important and essential, not the messengers there are many and varied (Muhamed, JC, White Buffalo Calf woman, Zarathustra), and not the envelopes they are many and varied (Quran, Gospels, Vedas, Vestas). God wants us all close and near, He is not particular about how we get to Him(messenger, envelope) , just that we draw close. The focus is on closeness to God, not the path we take to get there.

When a mother wants her children all over the world to visit her, she does not care if they take the bus, the train, the airplane, or the boat, as long as they show up at her house and give her a big hug. And all through the year she wants to hear from her beloved children, no matter if they call on the phone, or email, or text, or mail a paper letter, or have flowers delivered. She just wants to hear from them. Different religions, different devotions, different rituals are just different ways of talking to God and showing God we care.

i don't want to go too far off topic, just trying to address the topic "inconsistencies in islam" regarding other religions.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 02:12 PM..
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:06 PM
 
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What stopped you making the following statement:

the One God reveals Himself to all people in all places across all time, through different messengers. God is the same. the messengers are different. the message (of one God) is what is important and essential, not the messenger (Moses, JC, Mhmd, White Buffalo Calf woman), and not the envelope (Quran, Gospels, Vedas, Torah)
??
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:15 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
When a mother wants her children all over the world to visit her, she does not care if they take the bus, the train, the airplane, or the boat, as long as they show up at her house and give her a big hug.
That's right. Believing that the only mean to get to her is the bus is rejecting the other means.
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's right. Believing that the only mean to get to her is the bus is rejecting the other means.
yes, correct.
mode of transport = which messenger

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 02:57 PM..
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
A Crstn or Jew can worship the One God, and at the same time reject Mhamd altogether. Knowingly clearly deliberately through the use of free choice.

What then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as rejecting belief in God. Rejecting Muhamd is not the same as disobeying God.

They are very different things altogether.

It sounds like you are saying God and Muhamd are a package deal and you can't have one without the other.

It sounds like you are saying a person can only obey God by accepting Muhamd, a person doesn't believe in God unless they accept Muhamd.
While it is possible for a Christian or Jew to reject the person they believe Muhammad(saws) to be, they can not reject his message of monotheism and still be either
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is possible for a Christian or Jew to reject the person they believe Muhammad(saws) to be, they can not reject his message of monotheism and still be either
Do you accept that a person (Crstn, Jew, Lakota) can practice monotheism (one Creator) and also choose not to acknowledge Muhamd?
or are you saying someone can't be a monotheist unless they recognize Muhamd?

i just want to be clear on what your post says.
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Old 10-22-2017, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Do you accept that a person (Crstn, Jew, Lakota) can practice monotheism (one Creator) and also choose not to acknowledge Muhamd?
or are you saying someone can't be a monotheist unless they recognize Muhamd?

i just want to be clear on what your post says.
The answer to your question is a bit of a paradox. You and I probably have very different concepts of Muhammad. I too would reject Muhammad(saws) iI I believed he was like many non-Muslims believe. To clarify You and I have very similar concepts Moses(pbuh) Neither of us could reject Moses(pbuh) without rejecting his teachings. I could not reject Muhammad(saws) however you could probably reject your concept of him without rejecting his teachings.

We do not believe the Qur'an was a new revelation nor that Muhammad(saws) taught anything that was not revealed to Moses(pbuh) or any of the other true Prophets(PBUT)
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:58 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,683,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The answer to your question is a bit of a paradox. You and I probably have very different concepts of Muhammad. I too would reject Muhammad(saws) iI I believed he was like many non-Muslims believe. To clarify You and I have very similar concepts Moses(pbuh) Neither of us could reject Moses(pbuh) without rejecting his teachings. I could not reject Muhammad(saws) however you could probably reject your concept of him without rejecting his teachings.

We do not believe the Qur'an was a new revelation nor that Muhammad(saws) taught anything that was not revealed to Moses(pbuh) or any of the other true Prophets(PBUT)
If you are saying that a person must accept a specific human leader in order to be a monotheist, in order to be devoted to the Creator, then i disagree. Our relationship with the Creator is not reliant or dependent on any particular human person living or dead. I also understand that both Islam and Crstinty do require a specific human person as part of their creed / doctrine.

so in the "modes of transportation" analogy used earlier, one says "must take the bus" (Islam / Mhamed), another says "must take the train" (Crstnty / JC), and Judaism view is "doesn't matter how you get there" (plane, car, walk, bus, train, canoe, roller blades, helicopter) just get to mom's house and give her a big hug (monotheism).

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-22-2017 at 11:14 PM..
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