U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-23-2017, 01:44 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
so in the "modes of transportation" analogy used earlier, one says "must take the bus" (Islam / Mhamed), another says "must take the train" (Crstnty / JC), and Judaism view is "doesn't matter how you get there" (plane, car, walk, bus, train, canoe, roller blades, helicopter) just get to mom's house and give her a big hug (monotheism).
That is putting it the wrong way round.

It is you who reject the message with which Jesus and Muhammad were sent but not the message with which Moses was sent. It is you who believe in only one mean of the transport and not the later ones. This is why I had asked you earlier on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Can you reject Moses as messenger and still believe in the Torah?
But you had just danced around it without answering this question.

The fact of the matter is that the Jews are the only one of three groups of people who reject the message brought by both Jesus and Muhammad. Muslims do not reject either Jesus or Moses and do not reject the message brought by them.

[Qur'an 3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

Despite believing in what was given to Moses and Jesus, it hasn't made us Jews or Christians because each of them and Muhammad brought the same message of One God and submitting to Him. Reject the message brought by anyone of them and you reject the message brought by the others.

Finally, I would like an honest answer from you to my following question:

Can you reject Moses as messenger and still believe in the Torah?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-23-2017, 01:53 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's right. Believing that the only mean to get to her is the bus is rejecting the other means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
yes, correct.
mode of transport = which messenger
Then why reject the two later modes of transport (bus and plane) and stick just to one (the boat)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 07:19 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
....Despite believing in what was given to Moses and Jesus, it hasn't made us Jews or Christians because each of them and Muhammad brought the same message of One God and submitting to Him. Reject the message brought by anyone of them and you reject the message brought by the others.
Judaism recognizes thst all people have access to God. Therefore Judaism says many paths to God the focus is God no matter how you get there many teachers many religions.

Islam and Crstnty doctrine say must go through this or that person to get to God, they insist a particular human is required. They insist on this or that religion is "better" or is "correct"

That is the difference.

Whichever religion or teacher gets a person to God is the correct or best one for that individual. But it is not one size fits all for everybody. One God yes. That is the identical message of monotheism. Delivered through many religions many human leaders many teachers many different devotions.

Same message of monotheism delivered in different envelopes.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-23-2017 at 07:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
If you are saying that a person must accept a specific human leader in order to be a monotheist, in order to be devoted to the Creator, then i disagree. Our relationship with the Creator is not reliant or dependent on any particular human person living or dead. I also understand that both Islam and Crstinty do require a specific human person as part of their creed / doctrine.

so in the "modes of transportation" analogy used earlier, one says "must take the bus" (Islam / Mhamed), another says "must take the train" (Crstnty / JC), and Judaism view is "doesn't matter how you get there" (plane, car, walk, bus, train, canoe, roller blades, helicopter) just get to mom's house and give her a big hug (monotheism).
It is not a question of following or accepting any person, messenger or prophet. It is about following the correct instructions. It is of no importance as to who delivered it. You will not get to mom's house if the instructions are sending you to the town dump.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 09:42 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is not a question of following or accepting any person, messenger or prophet. It is about following the correct instructions. It is of no importance as to who delivered it. You will not get to mom's house if the instructions are sending you to the town dump.
tell us more what those are:
"correct instructions" =
"town dump" =
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 10:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Judaism recognizes thst all people have access to God. Therefore Judaism says many paths to God the focus is God no matter how you get there many teachers many religions.
That is just a lip service. In reality, Judaism rejects the path to God Jesus took and Muhammad took. The only path Judaism recognizes is path revealed through Moses. Otherwise you wouldn't reject path taken by Jesus and Muhammad.

Jesus was the Messiah for Jewish people. They rejected him as the Messiah. They rejected his path to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Islam and Crstnty doctrine say must go through this or that person to get to God, they insist a particular human is required. They insist on this or that religion is "better" or is "correct"

That is the difference.
You are mistaken. Islam does not say that we need to go through Muhammad to get to God. Where did you get that idea from?

The only religion that is better or correct is "believing in One God and submitting to Him by obeying Him". This is the path taken by both Jesus and Muhammad. You reject this path. You reject them and their path and by doing so you reject path to God. Basically you are stuck in boat when people after you are travelling in car/bus and airplane. You don't want to travel by bus or airplane. You say it is not for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Whichever religion or teacher gets a person to God is the correct or best one for that individual.
So if the plane gets you to the mother quickly, why take the boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
But it is not one size fits all for everybody.
That's why the number of people using the boat for travelling to their mother is well down. Now the preferred mode of travel is bus/car or plane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
One God yes. That is the identical message of monotheism. Delivered through many religions many human leaders many teachers many different devotions.

Same message of monotheism delivered in different envelopes.
But you go for the only one envelope delivered by Moses. You reject Moses and you will have to reject the envelope he delivered. There is no Judaism and no Torah without Moses. This is why you are not willing to answer my question that I have asked twice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
tell us more what those are:
"correct instructions" =
"town dump" =
The "Town Dump" comment" was in reference to your "Mom's House" in other words you are not going to get to "Mom's House" if the person you are listening to is not giving directions to "Mom's House'

All of the "True Prophets" gave proper instructions on reaching heaven. The same message was given many times to all people and people consistently failed to follow the instructions. Out of mercy we were again reminded through Muhammad(saws). The message will never be repeated again. The time of warning us has been completed.

Fortunately for all of us, we are not subject to perfection. Our intentions and sincerity play a very important part of our salvation. We are only required to do the best in accordance with our abilities and understanding of what we have access to knowing.

Neither I nor any other Muslim has the ability to know if any specific individual will go to heaven. For all I know a person I personally believe to be an absolute debauchee might be submitting to God(swt) to the best of his ability in accordance with his capabilities. It is not up to any human to judge who will reach heaven
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 11:19 AM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
... It is not up to any human to judge who will reach heaven
yes that is correct and I agree
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 07:53 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
...
Despite believing in what was given to Moses and Jesus, it hasn't made us Jews or Christians because each of them and Muhammad brought the same message of One God and submitting to Him....
i agree that the same message given to all is monotheism, one God.

perhaps since Crstns and Jews already had received the same message of monotheism, about 1,900 years ago for Crstnty, and about 3,200 years ago for Jews; then they may feel that therefore they did not need the same message of monotheism again when Muhamed appeared some 500 years later (for Crstns), or 1,900 years later (for Jews) as they already had monotheism for many many centuries already.

perhaps they felt and feel "i love my religion and it serves me well i'm not going to give it up" perhaps it's as simple as "this works for me, so I'm not changing" or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Muhamed and the religion known as Islam that grew around his teachings reached many people who did not have monotheism. And it continues to do so to this day.

as you say since you received the message of monotheism through Muhamed you do not need to become a Crstan or a Jew. The same holds true for Crstns and Jews. Since they received the message of monotheism already they may also feel as you state they do not need to become Muslims. they are simply different devotions, different expressions of the same message monotheism.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-23-2017 at 08:37 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2017, 09:45 PM
 
13,092 posts, read 13,689,872 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
i agree that the same message given to all is monotheism, one God.

perhaps since Crstns and Jews already had received the same message of monotheism, about 1,900 years ago for Crstnty, and about 3,200 years ago for Jews; then they may feel that therefore they did not need the same message of monotheism again when Muhamed appeared some 500 years later (for Crstns), or 1,900 years later (for Jews) as they already had monotheism for many many centuries already.

perhaps they felt and feel "i love my religion and it serves me well i'm not going to give it up" perhaps it's as simple as "this works for me, so I'm not changing" or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Muhamed and the religion known as Islam that grew around his teachings reached many people who did not have monotheism. And it continues to do so to this day.

as you say since you received the message of monotheism through Muhamed you do not need to become a Crstan or a Jew. The same holds true for Crstns and Jews. Since they received the message of monotheism already they may also feel as you state they do not need to become Muslims. they are simply different devotions, different expressions of the same message monotheism
.
correction, i goofed on the math, it is about 3,800 years ago
and 2,400 years later

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-23-2017 at 09:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top