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Old 11-28-2017, 06:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
ummmmm ..... let's see,,,, perhaps you can use a little common sense before asking us to research our religion -- but thanks anyway.
Only 13 percent of Muslims have Arabic as their first language. Meaning, yeah, I'm gonna ask if you in fact know what your religion really said. Since they are claim that it can only be translated "properly" into Arabic.

So, what's this about common sense? Seems like I have more of it than you do.

Quote:
You don't think a convert (or revert, as the term is in Islam) has already done the research into the religion she chose to follow?
It's "revert" because Islam is, quite literally, backsliding.

We had Judaism, and this had the Law.

Then came Christianity, and the Law of Judaism was claimed fulfilled (effectively obsolete).

Then came Islam, which basically set up a proxy Law of its own, without understanding the reason for the original Law.

You claim to understand Islam, but you are convinced you don't need to study the Torah, then all you have convinced me is that you neither understand Christianity or Judaism, nor the religion the came from influence of these faiths. So... yeah I don't think a convert properly researched.

Here's a hint. Why was Kashrut (kosher) mandated? Pretty quickly, you understand that this is largely due to health concerns. Eating already dead food, eating bug-infested food, eating shellfish, eating pork. Because of allergies and health concerns.

Why was Halal mandated? "Uhhhh..." yeah exactly, you can't immediately find the logic behind it, so you have to consult the scripture.

Quote:
O you People! Eat of what is on earth, Halal and pure, and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan; Indeed for he is to you an open enemy (2:168)


O you who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him that you worship (2:172)


And why should you not eat of that (meat) on which Allah's Name has been pronounced (at the time of slaughter), while He has explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you, except under extreme necessity? And, surely many do lead (mankind) astray by their own desires through lack of knowledge. Certainly your Lord knows best the Transgressor (6:119)


Eat not (O believers) of that meat on which Allah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of slaughtering) for sure it is disobedience of Allah (a sinful conduct). And certainly, the Shayaatin (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind) to dispute with you, and if you obey them [making al-Maytatah legal to eat (Maytatah - a dead animal or animal / bird slaughtered without taking the name of Allah during slaughter)], then you would indeed be a polytheists (i.e. doing shirk, ascribing partners to Allah) (6:121)
Alright, did you notice a pattern? Nothing concerning any purpose of health (at all), and no indication that it is connected to health. Just "Allah has declared this food forbidden, so don't eat it." This is very literally "because I said so" reasoning.

If you would understand Islam, you must learn the whole of the Bible and Torah. If you have the whole of the Bible and the Torah, there is not reason why you aren't already saved under two religions, so why do you need a third? Far from being the "final revelation" to humanity, the Quran says nothing that is new or inspiring, and a lot that is bat**** crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/04/o...pocalypse.html

Quote:
A much-quoted hadith, to which the Dabiq headline was alluding, says, “The Son of Mary will soon descend among you as a just ruler; he will break the cross and kill the swine.” The usual interpretation of this prophecy is that when Jesus comes back, he will put an end to his own worship, symbolized by the cross, and re-establish the dietary laws that Christianity abandoned but Jews and Muslims still observe.
Uhhhhh... yeah. So, Jesus came to save sinners, but suddenly Muhammad has the straight scoop even though he came centuries later. And he tells us that the Bible is "corrupted" and only he has the right copy, which says that Jesus will for some reason invalidate the religion that he told people to spread the Good News over all the Earth, to instead follow a teaching that basically treats him like he never lived. Quick question: If Jesus came to reinforce Jewish teachings, why did he die on the cross, at the order of Jewish leaders?

Luke 14:6

Or maybe I'll believe this instead?

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...rse-of-the-law

No matter how you try to follow this halal diet law... you will die. Without exceptions. You will die.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 11-28-2017 at 06:51 PM..
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:06 PM
 
3,211 posts, read 1,071,756 times
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Arabic isn't my language either. Is it yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
It's "revert" because Islam is, quite literally, backsliding.
Using common sense, they slide back into Islam. That's the literal meaning of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
We had Judaism, and this had the Law.
Is it the same thing or two different things; "Judaism" and "the Law"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Then came Christianity, and the Law of Judaism was claimed fulfilled (effectively obsolete).
This is where one must use common sense and not take any such claim. Matthew 5:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Then came Islam, which basically set up a proxy Law of its own, without understanding the reason for the original Law.
What was the "original Law"? Which Law did Israel (Jacob) follow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
You claim to understand Islam, but you are convinced you don't need to study the Torah, then all you have convinced me is that you neither understand Christianity or Judaism, nor the religion the came from influence of these faiths. So... yeah I don't think a convert properly researched.
I don't think you have researched any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Here's a hint. Why was Kashrut (kosher) mandated? Pretty quickly, you understand that this is largely due to health concerns.
This was mandated when the Torah was revealed. Torah was revealed after Israel (Jacob). Why wasn't Kashrut mandated for the children of Israel earlier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Eating already dead food, eating bug-infested food, eating shellfish, eating pork. Because of allergies and health concerns.
Did these allergies and health concerns begin only after exodus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Why was Halal mandated? "Uhhhh..." yeah exactly, you can't immediately find the logic behind it, so you have to consult the scripture.
"Halal" doesn't mean just the food. It means other things too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Quote:
O you People! Eat of what is on earth, Halal and pure, and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan; Indeed for he is to you an open enemy (2:168)

O you who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him that you worship (2:172)

And why should you not eat of that (meat) on which Allah's Name has been pronounced (at the time of slaughter), while He has explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you, except under extreme necessity? And, surely many do lead (mankind) astray by their own desires through lack of knowledge. Certainly your Lord knows best the Transgressor (6:119)

Eat not (O believers) of that meat on which Allah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of slaughtering) for sure it is disobedience of Allah (a sinful conduct). And certainly, the Shayaatin (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind) to dispute with you, and if you obey them [making al-Maytatah legal to eat (Maytatah - a dead animal or animal / bird slaughtered without taking the name of Allah during slaughter)], then you would indeed be a polytheists (i.e. doing shirk, ascribing partners to Allah) (6:121)
Alright, did you notice a pattern? Nothing concerning any purpose of health (at all), and no indication that it is connected to health. Just "Allah has declared this food forbidden, so don't eat it." This is very literally "because I said so" reasoning.
You could have included the following verse:

[6.145] Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine-- for that surely is unclean-- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Something "unclean" is good for health?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
If you would understand Islam, you must learn the whole of the Bible and Torah. If you have the whole of the Bible and the Torah, there is not reason why you aren't already saved under two religions, so why do you need a third?
Which one is the first one and which is the second? The Qur'an doesn't say that Islam is the third religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Far from being the "final revelation" to humanity, the Quran says nothing that is new or inspiring, and a lot that is bat**** crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/04/o...pocalypse.html
Nothing new? Exactly! It is not a third religion if there is nothing new in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Uhhhhh... yeah. So, Jesus came to save sinners, but suddenly Muhammad has the straight scoop even though he came centuries later. And he tells us that the Bible is "corrupted" and only he has the right copy, which says that Jesus will for some reason invalidate the religion that he told people to spread the Good News over all the Earth, to instead follow a teaching that basically treats him like he never lived. Quick question: If Jesus came to reinforce Jewish teachings, why did he die on the cross, at the order of Jewish leaders?
This is where your knowledge about the Qur'an and Islam is found lacking. Did Jesus die on the cross? Where did he ever mention that his religion is Christianity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Luke 14:6

Or maybe I'll believe this instead?

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...rse-of-the-law
If you use common sense, you would know why the need for the revelation of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
No matter how you try to follow this halal diet law... you will die. Without exceptions. You will die.
We already know that. Every soul shall taste death. Even Jesus isn't going to save anyone if he couldn't save himself from death.
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Old 11-30-2017, 08:11 AM
 
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I know you intended all of this as a refutation, but it falls flat. I reverase order.

Souls do not die. Christianity believes in an immortal soul, which is why one should not fear death. So do Jews I believe. In fact, if Muslims do believe in a mortal soul then what accounts for their afterlife? Or is this a contradiction?

Sorry, but "you will know" is not a self-evident statement. Could it be because jihadist thugs will come and break my body? Because, I know from common sense that this is not really a good reason. Its an emotional reason, yes. But after the fear wears off, I'm still left with my original faith, lying to you to survive. How is this different from taqiyya. Or maybe I was so unconvinced by your "common sense" that I chose death instead.

Jesus did die on the cross but he was believed by all of his followers to have rose from the dead. He died for their sins. He was not a Christian, and yes he was DEFINITELY not a Muslim. Islam was started in 600ish AD, whereas Jesus was a Jew born during the first century. His followers were Christians. They followed the path of Jesus himself. Do you not think maybe his followers might have a better idea of what Christianity is all about than a guy born 600 years later (Muhammad) and another born 2000 years later (you)?

No, this is not what I mean. I dont mean that it is consistent. I mean it's plagiarize, out of context, to prop up Muhammad's personal beliefs. The Bible by the OT talked of a God who was faithful and made a covenant with them. Told them not take vengeance, and by the NT they were even told to love their enemy. Some of these passages are lifted into this, and then, Muhammad has an official statement that later text overrides an earlier ones, well his later texts basically were either self-serving or actively promoting violrence. These two scriptures were enough, because they promised a way out of the cycle of violence and evil. The Quran promotes backsliding behavior. Revert is an apt statement. The rest of the human race is evolving, moving forward. Again I say, we dont need a third teaching, except as a warning of what threatens to replace the truth.

Thge first one was Judaism, the second was Christianity. The third is based on a false vision, and is called Islam.

They mean ritually unclean, still talking along the lines of taboo. Never is any consistency or larger pattern given as reason to eat this thing. It's not saying "God cares for you, and wants to see you live long in this world." Nope, just "Allah has forbidden" and declaring it unclean is just another word. If it were actual uncleanness, explain why it is that Jews kill individually while Muslims slaughter wholesale. Oh they say they dont, but I have actually watched Muslim slaughter in a video from PETA. It is inhumane and yes unsanitary.

Not even commenting to that one. "Other things."

They were a process. But the laws of Israel developed after the ten commandments as the Law, a group of 612 or so commandments. The Kashrut was an offshoot of this. Muhammad developed halal as a response to kosher, having doubtless seen it practiced in Mecca and Medina. Here's the thing. Jesus declared all foods clean. Even pork (read about Peter's dream). So why would he come again to get rid of the pigs. He wouldnt.

There were dietary laws in place even during the time of Jews in Egypt, for example the Passover had lots to say about what they were and werent to eat. The Kashrut was formalized when they became sovereign as a way to make sure they knew they were a separate people. When Christianity came, we moved out of laws into grace. Explain again why people should move back into laws. Oh wait, you cant.

Try reading the entire history of the Jewish people, several scientific analyses for the plagues, comparative religion, and writing my own beliefs down. Yeah, I obvious dont know what I'm talking about.

The original Law was the 612 or so laws of the Torah. The Quran is a knockoff that tells people who have advanced beyond a rules mindset to accept this yoke again. There is a reason I answered this in reverse order. Because, youre going backwards. Away from living your own life in wisdom, back to doing stuff cuz someone else told you. Jacob followed the covenant not the Law.

Matthew 5:18 is before the Law is fulfilled. Try Acts or the letters, if you want any decent argument.

The law of Judaism. The Deuteronomic Code, I believe it was called.

No, it's not. Muhammad is tricking his own followers telling them lies too. How can something be a final word if it in fact teaches regressive not progressive behavior.

So... you admit you don't honestly know what the real Quran says?
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
I know you intended all of this as a refutation, but it falls flat. I reverase order.

Souls do not die. Christianity believes in an immortal soul, which is why one should not fear death.
That's more than enough for me to know that you have very little knowledge about Islam.

Keep in mind that you are here in Islam forum.

In Islam, no human is immortal soul. Every soul shall taste death (Qur'an 3:185, 21:35, 29:57). Unless you are mixing up soul with spirit, even in Christianity soul can be sorrowful to death and be destroyed. It isn't immortal.
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post

No matter how you try to follow this halal diet law... you will die. Without exceptions. You will die.
This bit was funny.

So, you thought the OP was trying halal diet law in an attempt to live forever?
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:22 PM
 
4,473 posts, read 1,694,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post


It's "revert" because Islam is, quite literally, backsliding.


We had Judaism, and this had the Law.

Then came Christianity, and the Law of Judaism was claimed fulfilled (effectively obsolete).

Then came Islam, which basically set up a proxy Law of its own, without understanding the reason for the original Law.
This part is also very interesting.

So you had the Judaism, and this had the Law, Islam simply backslid.

What does this mean? There was no religion and no Law before Moses and before Judiasm?
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
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Well, I called my doctor today. I was shocked that I hadn't heard and it took forever to get a secretary on the phone. There are some fat deposits on my liver - the doctor recommends losing weight and doing more exercise in addition to skating. I'll continue to ice and roller skate. I want to get back into swimming and I'll join a gym. I'm also looking for a new job since he said to watch my stress. It is reversible. I want to move to Canada and I will be working on reversing.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That's more than enough for me to know that you have very little knowledge about Islam.

Keep in mind that you are here in Islam forum.

In Islam, no human is immortal soul. Every soul shall taste death (Qur'an 3:185, 21:35, 29:57). Unless you are mixing up soul with spirit, even in Christianity soul can be sorrowful to death and be destroyed. It isn't immortal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

How do you get 72 virgins if your soul dies?

A body dying means the soul separates out and goes to afterlife. A soul dying means... well, this.

Cessation of Existence - TV Tropes

And you say I don't have common sense.

I not only understand MY religion, I understand the flaws in yours.

Quote:
This bit was funny.

So, you thought the OP was trying halal diet law in an attempt to live forever?
Actually, it was to drive home the attempt to incorporate a concept of moral perfectionism into a diet. Also...



Quote:
This part is also very interesting.

So you had the Judaism, and this had the Law, Islam simply backslid.

What does this mean? There was no religion and no Law before Moses and before Judiasm?
First good question (sorry Khalif, you suck). To answer this I refer to references of the Exile and times where people turned from God. It happened several times. I also will refer to Noah, up to about the period of somewhere between Abraham and Moses.

We had morality here, but it was based on a direct relationship with God. Before the Law, or when the Law was not in place, a vast majority of people lived in a sort of spiritual darkness. Wars, greed, adultery, destruction of the land, etc. Noah, Abraham, and their family tree were parts of small pockets (Jews were not the only ones) of people who tried to do right, versus taking and destroying. Their morality was basically a (very crude) precursor of the ten commandments, and "remain faithful to God." Genesis 6:1-13 discusses this period very well.

Quote:
6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
"Corrupt" also means rotted. In other words, long ago, they literally polluted the earth through war, and turned it into a scorched wasteland, in addition to making loads of demigods. Noah was a small pocket of relative decency among a great number of violent and hateful human beings.

Why does Judaism have a diet code? For health and long life. Why does Judaism have a moral code? Because of what came before. Why does Islam have a diet code and a moral code? Because... because Allah said so, that's it! And because Judaism had one.

So, you may ask, well what about Jesus? Didn't I say the Law no longer applied? Is it abolished? No. This means a return to the state mentioned up until about Abraham or Moses. Which is the state the atheists seem to blithely long after. Rather, the Law is fulfilled. It's like this. If you believe the kosher/halal code is Law, if you eat pork tomorrow you are an infidel and never to be forgiven. The Law is still there, but the difference is, you are probably okay if you don't always measure up. Eat pork by accident? It's okay, your sins are died for.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:12 AM
 
4,473 posts, read 1,694,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

How do you get 72 virgins if your soul dies?

A body dying means the soul separates out and goes to afterlife. A soul dying means... well, this.

Cessation of Existence - TV Tropes

And you say I don't have common sense.

I not only understand MY religion, I understand the flaws in yours.



Actually, it was to drive home the attempt to incorporate a concept of moral perfectionism into a diet. Also...





First good question (sorry Khalif, you suck). To answer this I refer to references of the Exile and times where people turned from God. It happened several times. I also will refer to Noah, up to about the period of somewhere between Abraham and Moses.

We had morality here, but it was based on a direct relationship with God. Before the Law, or when the Law was not in place, a vast majority of people lived in a sort of spiritual darkness. Wars, greed, adultery, destruction of the land, etc. Noah, Abraham, and their family tree were parts of small pockets (Jews were not the only ones) of people who tried to do right, versus taking and destroying. Their morality was basically a (very crude) precursor of the ten commandments, and "remain faithful to God." Genesis 6:1-13 discusses this period very well.



"Corrupt" also means rotted. In other words, long ago, they literally polluted the earth through war, and turned it into a scorched wasteland, in addition to making loads of demigods. Noah was a small pocket of relative decency among a great number of violent and hateful human beings.

Why does Judaism have a diet code? For health and long life. Why does Judaism have a moral code? Because of what came before. Why does Islam have a diet code and a moral code? Because... because Allah said so, that's it! And because Judaism had one.

So, you may ask, well what about Jesus? Didn't I say the Law no longer applied? Is it abolished? No. This means a return to the state mentioned up until about Abraham or Moses. Which is the state the atheists seem to blithely long after. Rather, the Law is fulfilled. It's like this. If you believe the kosher/halal code is Law, if you eat pork tomorrow you are an infidel and never to be forgiven. The Law is still there, but the difference is, you are probably okay if you don't always measure up. Eat pork by accident? It's okay, your sins are died for.

So Christianity also backslid if the law was intially revealed to Moses and the Jews?
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:15 AM
 
4,473 posts, read 1,694,975 times
Reputation: 1565
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

How do you get 72 virgins if your soul dies?

A body dying means the soul separates out and goes to afterlife. A soul dying means... well, this.

Cessation of Existence - TV Tropes

And you say I don't have common sense.

I not only understand MY religion, I understand the flaws in yours.



Actually, it was to drive home the attempt to incorporate a concept of moral perfectionism into a diet. Also...





First good question (sorry Khalif, you suck). To answer this I refer to references of the Exile and times where people turned from God. It happened several times. I also will refer to Noah, up to about the period of somewhere between Abraham and Moses.

We had morality here, but it was based on a direct relationship with God. Before the Law, or when the Law was not in place, a vast majority of people lived in a sort of spiritual darkness. Wars, greed, adultery, destruction of the land, etc. Noah, Abraham, and their family tree were parts of small pockets (Jews were not the only ones) of people who tried to do right, versus taking and destroying. Their morality was basically a (very crude) precursor of the ten commandments, and "remain faithful to God." Genesis 6:1-13 discusses this period very well.



"Corrupt" also means rotted. In other words, long ago, they literally polluted the earth through war, and turned it into a scorched wasteland, in addition to making loads of demigods. Noah was a small pocket of relative decency among a great number of violent and hateful human beings.

Why does Judaism have a diet code? For health and long life. Why does Judaism have a moral code? Because of what came before. Why does Islam have a diet code and a moral code? Because... because Allah said so, that's it! And because Judaism had one.

So, you may ask, well what about Jesus? Didn't I say the Law no longer applied? Is it abolished? No. This means a return to the state mentioned up until about Abraham or Moses. Which is the state the atheists seem to blithely long after. Rather, the Law is fulfilled. It's like this. If you believe the kosher/halal code is Law, if you eat pork tomorrow you are an infidel and never to be forgiven. The Law is still there, but the difference is, you are probably okay if you don't always measure up. Eat pork by accident? It's okay, your sins are died for.

So Christianity also backslid if the law was intially revealed to Moses and the Jews?

Also, and importantly, are we saying that God created millions of people, the entire mankind BEFORE Moses and let them live without following any law, if yes, how will these people be judged or they all go to hell because they are not Jews?
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