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Old 01-23-2018, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Please keep in mind the context in which anything is said in the Qur'an. None of the Jews, Christians and even Muslims are free from making mistakes. Therefore, when the Qur'an mentions Christians, we need to try and understand which Christians. They are not all same even though they are all called "Christians" or "Muslims".

It took me a long time before I realized that context must be understood if we are not to misinterpret the scriptures. We need to read and understand the words carefully. For example, the Qur'an does not say that the Christians are nearer to Islam but close in love to the believers.

The reason is given in this verse as to why we would find certain Christians loving the believers. Such Christians learn the scriptures well, they do not have love for the material world and greed and they are not arrogant but are humble people. Such Christians will not wage war on believers (in the Qur'an) and we too are commanded to deal justly with such Christians. We must not attack them (or anyone else for that matter) first.

In reality, there is no divide. Any divide is similar to divide between Christians and Christians and divide between Muslims and Muslims. The simple cause is "envy" and "pride".

Regardless of what each group call itself, according to the Qur'an it is believing in God and doing of the good deeds that will lead a human to his/her salvation. This is what we do rather than what we call ourselves. God has given each group certain instructions and acts of devotion to perform. The Qur'an instructs us to think that we are in a race to do good deeds. The winners will be those who have done more of the good deeds by obeying God whether it is within the Christian group or between the Christians and Muslims.

First between the Christians (followers of the Book) and then between both (Christians and Muslims):

[3.113-114] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's verses in the nighttime and they adore (Him). They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed.


We are all in a race to do good deeds. We are not in a race to see who can beat up the other more. I am to see if I am doing good deeds for my salvation.

True!
We are to obey the same God. No point in arguing how many angels or which angels.

There is no mention of Book of Enoch in the Qur'an. There is mention of what was given to Moses and what was given to Jesus to preach. We believe in both revelations. The charge in the Qur'an against the Jews and Christians is not that they tampered with what was preached by both Moses and Jesus but that they did not keep up with what they were commanded to keep up with.

Correct. It confirms what was revealed through Moses and Jesus to the Bani Israel (the only existing believers at the time). The Qur'an is for all.

Allah does not mention any fallen angels in the Qur'an. The only angels that came to earth, and are mentioned in the Qur'an, came as a trial rather than were fallen.

[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman (Solomon) was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

The fallen angels you are talking about are supposed to have come even before Noah and the flood. The world started again with the righteous family of Noah after the flood. No more wicked people or even fallen angels (even if there were any) were left after the wrath of God. No more giants or fallen angels after the flood.

Christian scriptures must be only what was given first to Moses and then to Jesus. There were no Christians before that. And of course Christians are commanded to believe in what has been revealed through the Qur'an.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

Did Jesus mention this book? Did Jesus tell you that the angels can have sex with human and marry humans? He had different view of angels. Did even Moses mention this book? I don't think so. It was written by people a long time after the flood or even exodus and after Moses. All the written books were destroyed during the Babylonian attack and the captivity.
Wow the Quran seems perfect, I am so lucky to have a Quran. I think you are right when you say Jesus did not mention the Book of Enoch at all in the Gospels. But, most Christians do think Moses did mention Fallen Angels.


1Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Genesis(6:1-2)

Most Christians believe this verse can't be talking about only human-Men having relations with women because that would mean that God said the same thing essentially two times in the same sentence. How can it be that that God would be referring to only Man as being both men and Sons of God in a different subtext and strangely say twice in the same sentence that they had sex with women?

I don't believe that angels are literally Sons of God in a physical sense but that since Jesus came to earth both Men and Angels can be spiritual children of God. I agree with Islam that Angels have a very limited free-will if they have free-will at all. But, I believe that Angels can be forced to commit evil. I could be wrong but I think I read in the the Quran that Allah can create evil at will and use His Angels to commit evil.

I do believe that Angels are essentially spiritual robots, I'm not trying to be offensive to Gods' first sentient creation. I do believe that Jinn were the second sentient creation of God given a complete free-will unlike the first sentient creation, the Angels. A Jinn, now called Iblis, with the Angels under his command killed the disbelieving Jinn dwelling on the earth. And, that through Iblis the Jinn; under the Power of God, briefly ruled heaven until the creation of the third(final) sentient creation, Man.

I'm going to say something that might blow your mind. I believe Angels, Jinn, and Man are different sub-sets of the same beings. I believe that In heavenly form, Man will be able to fly and and have incredible Jinn-like speed to travel from A to B in an eye wink. I believe the spiritual body of man has the pontenial power to become invisible to the naked eye. The Quran is pro-science, I believe that the scientific knowledge that God teaches us in heaven will ultimately lead to Man, Jinn, and angels becoming indistinguishable in the eyes of Power.

I think the nature of the "Fallen Angels" is complex as I believe Angels don't have free-will. I believe their is a loophole to explain how and why an entity without free-will can commit evil against God without technically disobeying Him.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:59 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Wow the Quran seems perfect, I am so lucky to have a Quran. I think you are right when you say Jesus did not mention the Book of Enoch at all in the Gospels. But, most Christians do think Moses did mention Fallen Angels.

1Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Genesis(6:1-2)

Most Christians believe this verse can't be talking about only human-Men having relations with women because that would mean that God said the same thing essentially two times in the same sentence. How can it be that that God would be referring to only Man as being both men and Sons of God in a different subtext and strangely say twice in the same sentence that they had sex with women?
Adam is stated in the Bible as both Adam (human) and son of God (Luke 3:38). In Genesis 6, sons of God means men. It would not make sense if the verses said, "...that men saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took wives for themselves whomever they chose."

The reader is going to easily interpret it as men choosing their own daughters as wives.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Adam is stated in the Bible as both Adam (human) and son of God (Luke 3:38). In Genesis 6, sons of God means men. It would not make sense if the verses said, "...that men saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took wives for themselves whomever they chose."

The reader is going to easily interpret it as men choosing their own daughters as wives.
Overall Christendom as a whole, disagrees with the interpretation you provided. But let me just say as a Christian I believe the Quran is Gods' Word.

Catholics have to believe Muslims worship the same God; its in the Catechism. Thank you!

Last edited by AlwaysByChance; 01-23-2018 at 02:07 PM..
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:55 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I don't believe that angels are literally Sons of God in a physical sense but that since Jesus came to earth both Men and Angels can be spiritual children of God.
In Genesis 6, sons of God is in that sense used for men rather than for angels. Other men, apart of Adam, have been called son of God. Any good man in those days was regarded as (spiritual) son of God. That's how, eventually, idol worshiping had started leading to the flood. Good men were revered as saints and various tombs were built after their death. This led to their worship after people had made idols in their names. Jews had regarded righteous men as (symbolic) sons of God. Men in those early days of Adam and his sons were big (not as small as us today). They had to be big in those days if they were to govern on earth. Have you ever thought of the height of Adam? I think he was a giant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I agree with Islam that Angels have a very limited free-will if they have free-will at all. But, I believe that Angels can be forced to commit evil. I could be wrong but I think I read in the the Quran that Allah can create evil at will and use His Angels to commit evil.
Allah does not command angels to do evil. Evil is created by the created beings. What Allah creates is with justice and truth. Even Iblis was created good. He became evil after disobeying God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I do believe that Angels are essentially spiritual robots, I'm not trying to be offensive to Gods' first sentient creation. I do believe that Jinn were the second sentient creation of God given a complete free-will unlike the first sentient creation, the Angels. A Jinn, now called Iblis, with the Angels under his command killed the disbelieving Jinn dwelling on the earth. And, that through Iblis the Jinn; under the Power of God, briefly ruled heaven until the creation of the third(final) sentient creation, Man.
Man is earthly being. His spirit (that makes him exist and be alive) comes from God. Spirit is command of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I'm going to say something that might blow your mind. I believe Angels, Jinn, and Man are different sub-sets of the same beings. I believe that In heavenly form, Man will be able to fly and and have incredible Jinn-like speed to travel from A to B in an eye wink. I believe the spiritual body of man has the pontenial power to become invisible to the naked eye. The Quran is pro-science, I believe that the scientific knowledge that God teaches us in heaven will ultimately lead to Man, Jinn, and angels becoming indistinguishable in the eyes of Power.
You could be right but you will have to wait for that. As earthly being, we can do that only with God's permission and power from Him. Nothing like that is impossible for God. He gives life and brings about death. What is more difficult, flying or giving life to the dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I think the nature of the "Fallen Angels" is complex as I believe Angels don't have free-will. I believe their is a loophole to explain how and why an entity without free-will can commit evil against God without technically disobeying Him.
It may sound like a loophole to some but in reality it is justice that is misinterpreted as evil doing. God gives life. Is it evil of Him to take it eventually? Not everything we call evil is evil. Justice is not evil but injustice is.
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned"
The Holy Quran Surah 21: al-Anbiya’

sorry I made a mistake. I was trying to quote you
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In Genesis 6, sons of God is in that sense used for men rather than for angels. Other men, apart of Adam, have been called son of God. Any good man in those days was regarded as (spiritual) son of God. That's how, eventually, idol worshiping had started leading to the flood. Good men were revered as saints and various tombs were built after their death. This led to their worship after people had made idols in their names. Jews had regarded righteous men as (symbolic) sons of God. Men in those early days of Adam and his sons were big (not as small as us today). They had to be big in those days if they were to govern on earth. Have you ever thought of the height of Adam? I think he was a giant.

Allah does not command angels to do evil. Evil is created by the created beings. What Allah creates is with justice and truth. Even Iblis was created good. He became evil after disobeying God.

Man is earthly being. His spirit (that makes him exist and be alive) comes from God. Spirit is command of God.

You could be right but you will have to wait for that. As earthly being, we can do that only with God's permission and power from Him. Nothing like that is impossible for God. He gives life and brings about death. What is more difficult, flying or giving life to the dead?

It may sound like a loophole to some but in reality it is justice that is misinterpreted as evil doing. God gives life. Is it evil of Him to take it eventually? Not everything we call evil is evil. Justice is not evil but injustice is.
Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned"
The Holy Quran Surah 21: al-Anbiya’
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:01 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned"
The Holy Quran Surah 21: al-Anbiya’

sorry I made a mistake. I was trying to quote you
This verse doesn't say that evil comes from God. Only good comes from God. All the verse says is that we are tried/tested with good and bad. Good health and bad health. good times and bad times. Difficulties as well as easiness as a trial/test.

The word in Arabic used in this verse and translated as "evil" is "shr". It can mean "wickedness", "iniquity", "bad", "abuse", "evil", "viciousness" and "malignity".

The same word is used in the following verse but translated as "bad":

[3:180] And let not those who hoard up that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty think that it is better for them. Nay, it is worse for them. That which they hoard will be their collar on the Day of Resurrection. Allah's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Informed of what ye do.

Here, all the wealth seems good for us and can be good for if we use it properly but it could well be bad for us if not spent in the best interests of humanity. Hoarded up wealth is of no use to anyone. This means, it is good when God gives us but it is us that do something that it turns to bad/evil (shr) for us. Therefore, this word should be seen in that context.

There is another word in the Arabic Qur'an ("sayyiat") that is also translated as evil or evil deed (2:81, 2:271, 3:120, 3:193, 3:195, 4:18, 4:31, 4:78, 4:79, 4:85, 5:12, 5:65, 6:160, 7:153, 10:27, 13:6, 13:22, 23:96, 27:46, 27:90, 28:54, 30:36, 40:40, 41:34, 42:40, 42:48 and in many more verses. This word is more appropriate for us when talking about evil or evil deeds. It is this word that can be linked to Satan and Shayatin (plural of Satan/Shaytan).

Therefore, good comes from God and bad or evil or evil deeds are from people. We often turn good into bad and evil. Any misfortune that befalls us is often either of our own doing or of another person's doing; and not from God.

[4.79] Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever evil (sayyat) befalls you, it is from yourself...

Therefore, in reality, evil is not from God but from ourselves as a result of people doing evil deeds.

[13:22] Such as persevere in seeking their Lord's countenance and are regular in prayer and spend of that which We bestow upon them secretly and openly, and overcome evil with good. Theirs will be the sequel of the (heavenly) Home.

Again "sayyiat" in this verse is translated as "evil" that is opposite of "good". The way to salvation is doing of good. If we make a mistake and do evil, we must atone it with doing good. That way we repel evil with good. Satan must be repelled with remembrance of God. Be conscious of God and we are less likely to be friend of Satan and less likely to do evil.

[24:11]Lo! they who spread the slander are a gang among you. Deem it not a bad (shr) thing for you; say, it is good for you. Unto every man of them will be paid that which he hath earned of the sin; and as for him among them who had the greater share therein, his will be an awful doom.

So the word "shr" (bad or evil or misfortune) in Arabic in some verses is used that in reality turns out to be good for us. The real evil is always evil.

[2:81] Nay, but whosoever hath done evil (sayyiat) and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.

So the word "sayyiat" is related to real evil, evil deeds and with Satan/Shaytan. In case of Satan (Iblis), he wasn't created evil but became evil later on after doing evil deed (disobeying God and persuading Adam and Eve to disobey God.)

Therefore, evil is not from God. Only the good is from God. Evil is result of deeds of created beings.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:21 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned"
The Holy Quran Surah 21: al-Anbiya’
[21:35] Every human being is bound to taste death; and We test you [all] through the bad and the good [things of life] by way of trial: and unto Us you all must return. (Asad)

[21:35] Every soul is bound to have the taste of death. We are putting all of you to a test by passing you through bad and good conditions, and finally you shall return to Us. (Malik)

[21:35] Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (Pickthall)

[21:35] Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial: to Us must ye return. (Yusuf Ali)

The word "shr" or "shar" is different from the word "sayyiat" in the Arabic Qur'an. The evil you are talking about is related to the word "sayyiat".
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
[21:35] Every human being is bound to taste death; and We test you [all] through the bad and the good [things of life] by way of trial: and unto Us you all must return. (Asad)

[21:35] Every soul is bound to have the taste of death. We are putting all of you to a test by passing you through bad and good conditions, and finally you shall return to Us. (Malik)

[21:35] Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (Pickthall)

[21:35] Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial: to Us must ye return. (Yusuf Ali)

The word "shr" or "shar" is different from the word "sayyiat" in the Arabic Qur'an. The evil you are talking about is related to the word "sayyiat".
Fascinating! Someday I would like to read and understand Arabic. I wish I was multilingual. I would love to learn Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Semitic Ethiopic Geez, these are the languages of the bible.

Do you think that all other translations of the Quran are faulty?
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This verse doesn't say that evil comes from God. Only good comes from God. All the verse says is that we are tried/tested with good and bad. Good health and bad health. good times and bad times. Difficulties as well as easiness as a trial/test.

The word in Arabic used in this verse and translated as "evil" is "shr". It can mean "wickedness", "iniquity", "bad", "abuse", "evil", "viciousness" and "malignity".

The same word is used in the following verse but translated as "bad":

[3:180] And let not those who hoard up that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty think that it is better for them. Nay, it is worse for them. That which they hoard will be their collar on the Day of Resurrection. Allah's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Informed of what ye do.

Here, all the wealth seems good for us and can be good for if we use it properly but it could well be bad for us if not spent in the best interests of humanity. Hoarded up wealth is of no use to anyone. This means, it is good when God gives us but it is us that do something that it turns to bad/evil (shr) for us. Therefore, this word should be seen in that context.

There is another word in the Arabic Qur'an ("sayyiat") that is also translated as evil or evil deed (2:81, 2:271, 3:120, 3:193, 3:195, 4:18, 4:31, 4:78, 4:79, 4:85, 5:12, 5:65, 6:160, 7:153, 10:27, 13:6, 13:22, 23:96, 27:46, 27:90, 28:54, 30:36, 40:40, 41:34, 42:40, 42:48 and in many more verses. This word is more appropriate for us when talking about evil or evil deeds. It is this word that can be linked to Satan and Shayatin (plural of Satan/Shaytan).

Therefore, good comes from God and bad or evil or evil deeds are from people. We often turn good into bad and evil. Any misfortune that befalls us is often either of our own doing or of another person's doing; and not from God.

[4.79] Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever evil (sayyat) befalls you, it is from yourself...

Therefore, in reality, evil is not from God but from ourselves as a result of people doing evil deeds.

[13:22] Such as persevere in seeking their Lord's countenance and are regular in prayer and spend of that which We bestow upon them secretly and openly, and overcome evil with good. Theirs will be the sequel of the (heavenly) Home.

Again "sayyiat" in this verse is translated as "evil" that is opposite of "good". The way to salvation is doing of good. If we make a mistake and do evil, we must atone it with doing good. That way we repel evil with good. Satan must be repelled with remembrance of God. Be conscious of God and we are less likely to be friend of Satan and less likely to do evil.

[24:11]Lo! they who spread the slander are a gang among you. Deem it not a bad (shr) thing for you; say, it is good for you. Unto every man of them will be paid that which he hath earned of the sin; and as for him among them who had the greater share therein, his will be an awful doom.

So the word "shr" (bad or evil or misfortune) in Arabic in some verses is used that in reality turns out to be good for us. The real evil is always evil.

[2:81] Nay, but whosoever hath done evil (sayyiat) and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.

So the word "sayyiat" is related to real evil, evil deeds and with Satan/Shaytan. In case of Satan (Iblis), he wasn't created evil but became evil later on after doing evil deed (disobeying God and persuading Adam and Eve to disobey God.)

Therefore, evil is not from God. Only the good is from God. Evil is result of deeds of created beings.
I have a Quran with both Arabic and English text. I've read that most Sunni Muslims believe the Quran is uncreated(meaning it always existed in some form.)
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