U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-25-2018, 01:52 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Fascinating! Someday I would like to read and understand Arabic. I wish I was multilingual. I would love to learn Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Semitic Ethiopic Geez, these are the languages of the bible.
If someone tries to learn even one word at a time of another language, it could be great help in understanding that language. Apart from slight variations, Arabic has the same alphabet as Farsi (Persian language in Iran) and Urdu (spoken in Pakistan). Many of the words in these languages are common. This has helped me to understand more of the Arabic words than someone may do coming from outside these areas or from the Middle East.

Still, I do not rely on only one translation. I check with normally at least four of them if I am not sure about an Arabic word in the Arabic Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Do you think that all other translations of the Quran are faulty?
I wouldn't call them faulty otherwise each one of them can be called faulty. The real problem is that the Arabic words could have different translations. Which word to use of another language is very tricky business. It is not easy at all. Whenever I found variation in translation of any Arabic word in the Qur'an, I have been finding the same Arabic word somewhere else in the Qur'an (I can read all the Arabic words in the Qur'an) and the context in which it was used. This way I normally get to the heart of the matter and also understand how the translators came to use a certain word. This is how I understood that the word "evil" is used differently in these translations. And this is how I came to understand that only "good" is created by God and "evil" is creation of created beings when they do something wrong.

For you, checking with about four different translations will give you decent start. If you find any variation in translation of one word then know that the word in Arabic Qur'an was difficult to translate into English.

If still in doubt, feel free to ask in this forum and we will be happy to explain.

At one stage of my study of the Qur'an, I felt the need to read the Torah (5 books) and the Gospels (4 Gospels) to understand what was actually revealed to Moses and Jesus before the Qur'an. This has helped me to understand the Qur'an better. I check the Bible on three different sites. The Blue Letter Bible has both the Hebrew and Greek words in it. It has helped me understand the Bible better. Fundamentally, the Bible and the Qur'an have common ground. I feel that if someone doesn't understand this common ground, s/he is not going to understand either of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-25-2018, 02:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I have a Quran with both Arabic and English text. I've read that most Sunni Muslims believe the Quran is uncreated(meaning it always existed in some form.)
It is partly true and partly untrue. It depends on one's understanding of the Qur'an being uncreated. What do they mean exactly?

I will explain why it is partly true and why it is partly not true.

The Qur'an means something that is recited again and again. What do we recite; book or the words? We recite the words. How did these words get to us originally; in a book form or in a sound form? The answer is, in sound form. Where did the sound originate from? From God of course. Therefore, it is the words that were with God and came from God to us that we recite.

Can we say that the words existed with God? This is how Jesus was a word with God that was sent to Mary. With this understanding, it is true that the words of the Qur'an existed with God rather than God creating them.

As for partly being untrue, the Qur'an as a written book (in paper form) did not exist as uncreated. It was created in this form on earth.

God's words carry spirit from God. These words are quite powerful. Understanding these words are spiritually enlightening. This is why not many people understand what is meant by "spirit". Spirit comes from God and is in His commands. Basically, His command is spirit (ruh in Arabic).

[17:85] They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

Once again, you would find that some translators have translated the word "ar-ruh" (the spirit) in this verse as "the soul". Soul in Arabic is "Nafs" and not "Ruh". Ruh is Spirit. It comes from God and is very powerful. It was this Spirit with which God created Adam, Jesus and the universe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,448 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is partly true and partly untrue. It depends on one's understanding of the Qur'an being uncreated. What do they mean exactly?

I will explain why it is partly true and why it is partly not true.

The Qur'an means something that is recited again and again. What do we recite; book or the words? We recite the words. How did these words get to us originally; in a book form or in a sound form? The answer is, in sound form. Where did the sound originate from? From God of course. Therefore, it is the words that were with God and came from God to us that we recite.

Can we say that the words existed with God? This is how Jesus was a word with God that was sent to Mary. With this understanding, it is true that the words of the Qur'an existed with God rather than God creating them.

As for partly being untrue, the Qur'an as a written book (in paper form) did not exist as uncreated. It was created in this form on earth.

God's words carry spirit from God. These words are quite powerful. Understanding these words are spiritually enlightening. This is why not many people understand what is meant by "spirit". Spirit comes from God and is in His commands. Basically, His command is spirit (ruh in Arabic).

[17:85] They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

Once again, you would find that some translators have translated the word "ar-ruh" (the spirit) in this verse as "the soul". Soul in Arabic is "Nafs" and not "Ruh". Ruh is Spirit. It comes from God and is very powerful. It was this Spirit with which God created Adam, Jesus and the universe.
I've been trying to reconcile my Christian faith with Islam. As my Church teaches:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day" (CCC 841).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,448 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If someone tries to learn even one word at a time of another language, it could be great help in understanding that language. Apart from slight variations, Arabic has the same alphabet as Farsi (Persian language in Iran) and Urdu (spoken in Pakistan). Many of the words in these languages are common. This has helped me to understand more of the Arabic words than someone may do coming from outside these areas or from the Middle East.

Still, I do not rely on only one translation. I check with normally at least four of them if I am not sure about an Arabic word in the Arabic Qur'an.

I wouldn't call them faulty otherwise each one of them can be called faulty. The real problem is that the Arabic words could have different translations. Which word to use of another language is very tricky business. It is not easy at all. Whenever I found variation in translation of any Arabic word in the Qur'an, I have been finding the same Arabic word somewhere else in the Qur'an (I can read all the Arabic words in the Qur'an) and the context in which it was used. This way I normally get to the heart of the matter and also understand how the translators came to use a certain word. This is how I understood that the word "evil" is used differently in these translations. And this is how I came to understand that only "good" is created by God and "evil" is creation of created beings when they do something wrong.

For you, checking with about four different translations will give you decent start. If you find any variation in translation of one word then know that the word in Arabic Qur'an was difficult to translate into English.

If still in doubt, feel free to ask in this forum and we will be happy to explain.

At one stage of my study of the Qur'an, I felt the need to read the Torah (5 books) and the Gospels (4 Gospels) to understand what was actually revealed to Moses and Jesus before the Qur'an. This has helped me to understand the Qur'an better. I check the Bible on three different sites. The Blue Letter Bible has both the Hebrew and Greek words in it. It has helped me understand the Bible better. Fundamentally, the Bible and the Qur'an have common ground. I feel that if someone doesn't understand this common ground, s/he is not going to understand either of them.
The Orthodox Tewahedo Churches use this bible:
Old Testament[1]

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
I and II Samuel
I and II Kings
I Chronicles
II Chronicles (incl. the Prayer of Manasseh)
Jubilees
Enoch
I Ezra[4]
II Ezra[4]
Ezra Sutuel[4]
Tobit
Judith
Esther
I, II and III Meqabyan (Similarly named, but not the same as the four Greek Books of the Maccabees. )
Job
Psalms
Messalë (Proverbs ch 1–24)
Tägsas ("Reproof"; Proverbs ch 25–31)
Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Isaiah
Jeremiah (incl. Lamentations, Letter of Jeremiah, Baruch and 4 Baruch)
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum (or Nahium)
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
Sirach
Josippon
New Testament[1]

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
I Corinthians
II Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
I Thessalonians
II Thessalonians
I Timothy
II Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
I Peter
II Peter
I John
II John
III John
James
Jude
Revelation
Sinodos
Ser`atä Seyon (30 canons)
Te'ezaz (71 canons)
Gessew (56 canons)
Abtelis (81 canons)
I-II Covenant
Ethiopic Clement[5]
Ethiopic Didascalia[5]

When the Muslims went to Ethiopia, they would have encountered Christians with this bible.
The Arabic word "Tawhid" Oneness, is nearly the same as the Ethiopic word "Tewahedo".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,448 times
Reputation: 113
I would just like to make one final point about Genesis chapter 6. It is common knowledge that direct lineal incest cannot produce giants/warriors. When the Bible speaks of giants(Nephilim) it is likely an exaggeration for dramatic effect on the reader. In short, Incest does not produce fertile giants/warriors only diseased offspring.

6*And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2*That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3*And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4*There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Genesis 6:1-4)

And the Lord said unto Michael: "Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire:〈and〉to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations[.] (Enoch 10:11-14)

Samyaza convinced several other Watchers to join him in fornicating with women. As a result, he and the other sinful Grigori begot giant offspring (called Nephilim in the Book of Genesis) that dominated and feasted upon humans during the days of Jared. The Watchers' other sin was to teach humans various creative arts — especially Azazel's, who taught the secrets of war, which brought down the wrath of God.

And to Gabriel said the Lord: "Proceed against the biters and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have[.] (Enoch 10:9)

The existence of Samyaza I believe, goes in accordance with Islam.

The Quran is merely the most perfect of all scripture. I am still a Christian, but this is what I believe.

Last edited by AlwaysByChance; 01-25-2018 at 10:54 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 02:07 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The existence of Samyaza I believe, goes in accordance with Islam.
How? It is not mentioned in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The Quran is merely the most perfect of all scripture. I am still a Christian, but this is what I believe.
That's why I am a Muslim. The Qur'an does not have words of men in it; every word is from God.

The sons of God were men; not angels. These men existed both before and after their sex with women. Therefore, the giants mentioned existed before and after the fornication mentioned. It was between men and women. Angels don't have sex with humans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2018, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,448 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How? It is not mentioned in the Qur'an.

That's why I am a Muslim. The Qur'an does not have words of men in it; every word is from God.

The sons of God were men; not angels. These men existed both before and after their sex with women. Therefore, the giants mentioned existed before and after the fornication mentioned. It was between men and women. Angels don't have sex with humans.
I don't quite know how to give my explanation with words, as to how a person or persons can, without free-will can commit evil. A person such as (an Angel or Slave) cannot theoretically sin against God. It's a mystery to me. It reminds me of the old saying, "where there is a will, there is a way." except angels don't have a "will of there own" in the matter. I feel the explanation goes beyond my worldly understandings at the moment.

I feel the Quran was primarily given by God as a present of love, compassion, and mercy for the Jinn and Mankind, to explain our purpose on earth. If you haven't noticed, "The Angels" have the longest chapter (Surah 35), as compared to the Chapter of "The Jinn" (Surah 72) and the shortest chapter of all the Quran is dedicated to Man, "Mankind" (Surah 114). Why is this? Do Jinn and Man matter more or less than Angels? Is God more direct (and brief) with the Jinn and Man than He is with the Angels? Whatever the reason is, I sure don't know. But, it makes me wonder.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2018, 12:56 AM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,655,473 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I don't quite know how to give my explanation with words, as to how a person or persons can, without free-will can commit evil. A person such as (an Angel or Slave) cannot theoretically sin against God. It's a mystery to me. It reminds me of the old saying, "where there is a will, there is a way." except angels don't have a "will of there own" in the matter. I feel the explanation goes beyond my worldly understandings at the moment.

I feel the Quran was primarily given by God as a present of love, compassion, and mercy for the Jinn and Mankind, to explain our purpose on earth. If you haven't noticed, "The Angels" have the longest chapter (Surah 35), as compared to the Chapter of "The Jinn" (Surah 72) and the shortest chapter of all the Quran is dedicated to Man, "Mankind" (Surah 114). Why is this? Do Jinn and Man matter more or less than Angels? Is God more direct (and brief) with the Jinn and Man than He is with the Angels? Whatever the reason is, I sure don't know. But, it makes me wonder.
If I had to answer this question, I would probably say this.

"There could be many faith related questions where we don't know the answer. We will never know EVERYTHING, because if we do, then we also become Gods.

Now, The philosophy behind the portion of Quran's message to Humans or Jins or Angels.

Here is what matters.

We have a certain amount of intelligence, logic, energy resources, and more importantly, time. The clock is ticking before the last curtain falls on our eyes.

So, if we think honestly and realistically then truth of the matter is that the portion of Quranic message towards humans IS MORE THAN ENOUGH for us to try to live our lives as per Quranic guidance.

^^^ THIS is what matters !!!

What and how much is directed towards Jins and/or Angels should not be too much of an our concern because our clock is clicking, and time is of assence.

Islam is an action (as Woodrow puts it) - the rubber needs to hit the road. We have received guidance - no point now in wasting time. No use of worrying about what are Jins or Angels supposed to do.

We need to worry about our ownselves as to what are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to live a peaceful and morally conscious life under islamic guidance to prepare for the judgement day? And how to best utilize our limited time here on earth before the bell rings and our time is up!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2018, 03:01 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,043,445 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I don't quite know how to give my explanation with words, as to how a person or persons can, without free-will can commit evil. A person such as (an Angel or Slave) cannot theoretically sin against God. It's a mystery to me. It reminds me of the old saying, "where there is a will, there is a way." except angels don't have a "will of there own" in the matter. I feel the explanation goes beyond my worldly understandings at the moment.
It's because you have learnt from explanations of humans that angels sin. Angels do not sin. Sin is being disobedient to God. The moment you disobey God, you sin. Angels do not disobey God and, therefore, they do not sin.

Also, there is no mention of any angel being sent to hell but only jinn and humans. Angels, instead, would be guards of both hell and paradise and will do as commanded by God. They do exactly as God commands them to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I feel the Quran was primarily given by God as a present of love, compassion, and mercy for the Jinn and Mankind, to explain our purpose on earth. If you haven't noticed, "The Angels" have the longest chapter (Surah 35), as compared to the Chapter of "The Jinn" (Surah 72) and the shortest chapter of all the Quran is dedicated to Man, "Mankind" (Surah 114). Why is this?
Please note that names of the chapters are chosen because of a word mentioned in the chapter. It doesn't mean that the whole chapter is about that one word/subject such as "angel" or "jinn".

The Qur'an is primarily sent to mankind to guide humans as to how they should live this life and meet the purpose they were created for. This guidance is not just in one chapter of the Qur'an but everywhere in the Qur'an.

Further, the Qur'an is not only about what we can see but quite a lot in it is about "unseen" ("ghaib" in Arabic). As our knowledge is limited compared to the unlimited knowledge of God, God has given us some knowledge about the "unseen". God is unseen, angels are unseen, jinn are unseen and heaven and hell is unseen. What has passed centuries ago is also unseen to us. Therefore, such knowledge is given to us so that we can see a bigger picture about our life and God's creation. This is why faith is not about things seen but about what is not seen.

Whether any chapter is long or short matters not. What matters most is what we learn as knowledge from each chapter. All the revelations from God are full of knowledge about unseen. The mother-book of knowledge is with God. What has come to us is only a part of that knowledge. We should be grateful for such knowledge that has come to us as a mercy from God. It is all to guide us to be good human beings by doing good deeds for our salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Do Jinn and Man matter more or less than Angels?
Each is different creation. Each is created for a certain purpose. What matters most is that we (humans) serve the purpose we were created for. On earth, out of earthly creation, Man is the leader (khalifah) on earth. Man is the best of creation on earth. Everything else on earth was created for mankind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Is God more direct (and brief) with the Jinn and Man than He is with the Angels?
Man has been given more knowledge than angels but also potential to use that knowledge one way or the other and be accountable. Angels do not have that free-will. They are powerful creation but have no free-will of their own. They do as they are told by God to do; even destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in a few seconds or minutes. And they do not eat earthly things like roasted calf.

[11.69-71] And certainly Our messengers came to Abraham with good news. They said: Peace. Peace, said he, and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf. But when he saw that their hands were not extended towards it, he deemed them strange and conceived fear of them. . They said: Fear not, surely we are sent to Lot's people. And his wife was standing (by), so she laughed, then We gave her the good news of Isaac and after Isaac of (a son's son) Jacob.

Genesis 18:7-8
Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

If you believe that the angels eat roasted calf then you can believe that they have sex with women too. The Qur'an is clear that the angels are not earthly beings and do not eat earthly things or have sex with earthly humans despite seeing billions of human having sex.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2018, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 99,448 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's because you have learnt from explanations of humans that angels sin. Angels do not sin. Sin is being disobedient to God. The moment you disobey God, you sin. Angels do not disobey God and, therefore, they do not sin.

Also, there is no mention of any angel being sent to hell but only jinn and humans. Angels, instead, would be guards of both hell and paradise and will do as commanded by God. They do exactly as God commands them to do.

Please note that names of the chapters are chosen because of a word mentioned in the chapter. It doesn't mean that the whole chapter is about that one word/subject such as "angel" or "jinn".

The Qur'an is primarily sent to mankind to guide humans as to how they should live this life and meet the purpose they were created for. This guidance is not just in one chapter of the Qur'an but everywhere in the Qur'an.

Further, the Qur'an is not only about what we can see but quite a lot in it is about "unseen" ("ghaib" in Arabic). As our knowledge is limited compared to the unlimited knowledge of God, God has given us some knowledge about the "unseen". God is unseen, angels are unseen, jinn are unseen and heaven and hell is unseen. What has passed centuries ago is also unseen to us. Therefore, such knowledge is given to us so that we can see a bigger picture about our life and God's creation. This is why faith is not about things seen but about what is not seen.

Whether any chapter is long or short matters not. What matters most is what we learn as knowledge from each chapter. All the revelations from God are full of knowledge about unseen. The mother-book of knowledge is with God. What has come to us is only a part of that knowledge. We should be grateful for such knowledge that has come to us as a mercy from God. It is all to guide us to be good human beings by doing good deeds for our salvation.

Each is different creation. Each is created for a certain purpose. What matters most is that we (humans) serve the purpose we were created for. On earth, out of earthly creation, Man is the leader (khalifah) on earth. Man is the best of creation on earth. Everything else on earth was created for mankind.

Man has been given more knowledge than angels but also potential to use that knowledge one way or the other and be accountable. Angels do not have that free-will. They are powerful creation but have no free-will of their own. They do as they are told by God to do; even destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in a few seconds or minutes. And they do not eat earthly things like roasted calf.

[11.69-71] And certainly Our messengers came to Abraham with good news. They said: Peace. Peace, said he, and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf. But when he saw that their hands were not extended towards it, he deemed them strange and conceived fear of them. . They said: Fear not, surely we are sent to Lot's people. And his wife was standing (by), so she laughed, then We gave her the good news of Isaac and after Isaac of (a son's son) Jacob.

Genesis 18:7-8
Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

If you believe that the angels eat roasted calf then you can believe that they have sex with women too. The Qur'an is clear that the angels are not earthly beings and do not eat earthly things or have sex with earthly humans despite seeing billions of human having sex.
Do you think it's possible that the Servant and Abraham ate while the Angels stood by the tree and watched?

I don't know myself, it is confusing to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top