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Old 01-15-2018, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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- In Christianity, the Angels where created before Man. And, the Angels have a Hierarchy or Structure. Many Christians believe that Angels don't have Free-will though some were different than others for unknown reasons.

- In Roman "Papal" Catholicism (which is the largest branch of Christianity at 1.3 billion Adherents) this is the Hierarchy of Angels (1. Seraphim, 2. Cherubim, 3. Aeons, 4. Hosts, 5. Powers (=Virtues, Greek dynameis), 6. Authorities, 7. Principalities, 8. Dominions, 9. Thrones, 10. Archangels, 11. Man-Like Angels)

In "Papal" Catholicism, the Archangels are the Angels that rule the Earth under the Authority of Jesus Christ.

- In the Eastern Orthodox Church (275-350 Million Christians are Eastern Orthodox) There are 8 Angels that Rule the Earth under the Authority of Jesus Christ.
(They are listed as the following.)

(Michael) in the Hebrew language means "Who is like God?" or "Who is equal to God?" Michael has been depicted from earliest Christian times as a commander, who holds in his right hand a spear with which he attacks Lucifer/Satan, and in his left hand a green palm branch. At the top of the spear there is a linen ribbon with a red cross. The Archangel Michael is especially considered to be the Guardian of the Orthodox Faith and a fighter against heresies.
(Gabriel) means "God is my strength" or "Might of God." He is the herald of the mysteries of God, especially the Incarnation of God and all other mysteries related to it. He is depicted as follows: In his right hand, he holds a lantern with a lighted taper inside, and in his left hand, a mirror of green jasper. The mirror signifies the wisdom of God as a hidden mystery.
(Raphael) means "It is God who heals" or "God Heals" (Tobit 3:17, 12:15). Raphael is depicted leading Tobit (who is carrying a fish caught in the Tigris) with his right hand, and holding a physician's alabaster jar in his left hand.
(Uriel) means "God is my light," or "Light of God" (II Esdras 4:1, 5:20). He is depicted holding a sword against the Persians in his right hand, and a flame in his left.
(Sealtiel) means "Intercessor of God." He is depicted with his face and eyes lowered, holding his hands on his bosom in prayer.
(Jegudiel) means "Glorifier of God." He is depicted bearing a golden wreath in his right hand and a triple-thonged whip in his left hand.
(Barachiel) means "Blessed by God." He is depicted holding a white rose in his hand against his breast.
(Jerahmeel) means "God's exaltation." He is venerated as an inspirer and awakener of exalted thoughts that raise a person toward God (II Esdras 4:36). As an eighth, he is sometimes included as archangel.

- In the Oriental Orthodox Churches ( 85-105 million Christians) Both the Eritrean Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox Churches have Unique Beliefs about the Angels. They teach that a group of Angels rebelled against God in the time of Enoch "Idris" in Arabic.
(The Fallen Angels are listed below)
The names of the leaders are given as "Samyaza (Shemyazaz), their leader, Araqiel, R‚mÍÍl, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, D‚nÍl, Chazaqiel, Baraqiel, Asael, Armaros, Batariel, Bezaliel, Ananiel, Zaqiel, Shamsiel, Satariel, Turiel, Yomiel, Sariel."

These "Fallen Angels" thought Mankind corruption and war, murder, and rape. The Fallen Angels also breeded with Women to produce Angel-Man half breeds called (Nephilim). God was angry and then made war with the fallen Angels. Most of these Angels are trapped under the Earth until the end of the world, when they will be judged for their crimes. Some of these Angels were left to walk the earth in a state of weakness and shame and will continue to do so until Jesus Christ returns.

- Jehovah Witness Christians (numbering 10-25 million Christians) believe that Jesus Christ is a Title and not just a name. They believe that Michael the Archangel become a Man, the Christ Jesus 2000+ years ago. They believe that Jesus is also the Angel that defeated Satan in a war in Heaven.

- Mormon Christians (Numbering 15-20 million Christians) believe that Noah was the Angel Gabriel.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:13 AM
 
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Angels are celestial beings created before humans to perform different tasks for God. They do not disobey God, and do as they are commanded to do.

[4.172] The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.

It is understood from the Qur'an that there were thousands of angels helping early Muslims. There are billions of them if we count those with every human. Not all angels are mentioned in the Qur'an by name just as not all human messengers are mentioned in the Qur'an by name.

It is understood from the Qur'an that there are angels with each human recording every deed, and this record will be the evidence from those angels that human will not be able to deny on the Day of Judgment.

[50.16-18] And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein. When the two receivers receive, sitting on the right and on the left. He utters not a word but there is by him a watcher at hand.

[54.51-53] And certainly We have already destroyed the likes of you, but is there anyone who will mind? And everything they have done is in the writings. And everything small and great is written down.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:06 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 1,637,523 times
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Also, to add into what Khalid stated,

I think some Angels are common among the Christian and Islamic faith.

Gabriel is known as Jibrael. This Angel of God brought the reveleation to the prophet.
Michael is known as Mikael etc

Per Hadeeth, Angels are created from light.

And this is the interesting part.

What Islamic faith also has is the belief in the existence of a creation by God, called, Jinn.



Jinn population is not visible to us just as angels aren't, however, Jinns have freewill.
Jinns also have tribes and nations. There are good and bad Jinns - just like in human groups.
And Jinn kind will also stand accountability on the judgement day, just as mankind will.

Jinns are created with, what Quran says, "smokeless fire"

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire” [15:27

In my personal opinion this smokeless fire perhaps refers to some sort of an electromagnetic charge.

In the Islamic belief, many haunted places are actually occupied by Jinns.

You may have noticed that in those ghost hunter tv shows, sometimes their electrometers and other devices pick the presence of a moving electromagnetic field in the haunted houses?

Anyway,
I think the biggest difference between Islam and Christian doctrine, when it comes to Angels, is that, in the Christian doctrine, Satan was an angel.
In the Islamic doctrine, Satan was a Jinn.

As Quran clearly states

18.50 “And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate yourselves unto Adam.” So they prostrated themselves except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the command of his Lord.

Quran has a dedicated chapter for Jinns. Chapter 72.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Also, to add into what Khalid stated,

I think some Angels are common among the Christian and Islamic faith.

Gabriel is known as Jibrael. This Angel of God brought the reveleation to the prophet.
Michael is known as Mikael etc

Per Hadeeth, Angels are created from light.

And this is the interesting part.

What Islamic faith also has is the belief in the existence of a creation by God, called, Jinn.



Jinn population is not visible to us just as angels aren't, however, Jinns have freewill.
Jinns also have tribes and nations. There are good and bad Jinns - just like in human groups.
And Jinn kind will also stand accountability on the judgement day, just as mankind will.

Jinns are created with, what Quran says, "smokeless fire"

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fireĒ [15:27

In my personal opinion this smokeless fire perhaps refers to some sort of an electromagnetic charge.

In the Islamic belief, many haunted places are actually occupied by Jinns.

You may have noticed that in those ghost hunter tv shows, sometimes their electrometers and other devices pick the presence of a moving electromagnetic field in the haunted houses?



Anyway,
I think the biggest difference between Islam and Christian doctrine, when it comes to Angels, is that, in the Christian doctrine, Satan was an angel.
In the Islamic doctrine, Satan was a Jinn.

As Quran clearly states

18.50 ďAnd (remember) when We said to the angels: ďProstrate yourselves unto Adam.Ē So they prostrated themselves except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the command of his Lord.

Quran has a dedicated chapter for Jinns. Chapter 72.
I read that some teachers of Islam say that the Jinn are a class of Angel created from fire that were given free-will. And that the Jinn Tribe of Angels briefly ruled Heaven until Iblis (the Greatest of Angels of the Jinn Class) betrayed God. I know Iíve read this on Wikipedia.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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(Iblis as Angel)
"All the angels were created from light, except this angel."

— Ibn Abbas
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:26 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I read that some teachers of Islam say that the Jinn are a class of Angel created from fire that were given free-will. And that the Jinn Tribe of Angels briefly ruled Heaven until Iblis (the Greatest of Angels of the Jinn Class) betrayed God. I know Iíve read this on Wikipedia.
Jinn are not angels. No angel is going to hell but jinn are.

Jinn and men have freewill and are accountable for their actions.

[32.13] And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and humans together.

No mention of any angel being sent to hell. They do not disobey God.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
(Iblis as Angel)
"All the angels were created from light, except this angel."

ó Ibn Abbas
There must be some mistake in translation. Jinn are not earthly beings (created from earth) or created from light but are invisible beings just as angels are invisible beings but are not the same creation as angels.

[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

Iblis is not the only jinn not created from light. There are many more such jinn that are not created from light. Only angels are created from light. Angels can go to the higher heavens; jinn and men can't.
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There must be some mistake in translation. Jinn are not earthly beings (created from earth) or created from light but are invisible beings just as angels are invisible beings but are not the same creation as angels.

[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

Iblis is not the only jinn not created from light. There are many more such jinn that are not created from light. Only angels are created from light. Angels can go to the higher heavens; jinn and men can't.
See, Khalif this is where I want clearity from what the Quran teaches and says about Christianity. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the Quran, which I respect greatly. I've read a great deal of the Quran but have not yet read it in its entirety. It seems that the Quran says very clearly that Christians are even nearer to Islam than the Jewish-Islamic relationship.

". . . and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" -Quran (5:82).

Where is the the divide than, when Allah says Himself(and or Herself/Other) that Christians are very near Islam. The Quran says for Muslims to have great respect for the Scripture of the so called "People of the Book".

"And do not argue with the "People of the Scripture" except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims in submission to Him." -Quran (29:46)

God(Allah) was only pointing out false Jews and Christians but not true believers. I've only read the first 8 books of the Catholic Bible in their entirety:Genesis:Exodus:Leviticus:Numbers: Deuteronomy:Joshua:Judges:Ruth: Though I have read most of the Book of Enoch and most of the Gospels. Nowhere in the Quran does it say Jews and Christians tampered with previous scripture(Bible). God(Allah) merely states that the Quran is the perfect book.

"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous Messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the Universe." - Quran(10:36)

God(Allah) implies that their is a such thing a true Christians, Jews and Sabians(Possibly Mandaeans). How than can the scriptures of Christians claiming the existence of Fallen Angels be false? Allah says it's the doctrines of Christianity that could be wrong, Such as God being Three and not One, but NOT the Scripture itself.

"O People of Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and HIS WORD which He directed to Mary and a Soul (created at a command) from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." -Quran(4:171)

I'm not saying the Christian Scripture is flawless like the Quran, but Christian scripture is stated to be truthful in the Quran. Over 50 million Orthodox Christians consider the Book of Enoch to be a part of the Bible. Almost 2.3 billion Christians see the Book of Revelation as a Book of the Bible. Both books talk about Fallen Angels and directly names over 20 Fallen Angels by Name. How can any Muslim justify the denying of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures?

Last edited by AlwaysByChance; 01-22-2018 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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Sorry, I slightly misquoted the Quran but it was by accident. I really tried to start a conversation. I hope I didn't fail. The Quran is perfect, I am not yet but I'm trying. I tried so hard to quote the Quran precisely but I failed.
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
See, Khalif this is where I want clearity from what the Quran teaches and says about Christianity. You seem to be very knowledgeable about the Quran, which I respect greatly. I've read a great deal of the Quran but have not yet read it in its entirety. It seems that the Quran says very clearly that Christians are even nearer to Islam than the Jewish-Islamic relationship.
Please keep in mind the context in which anything is said in the Qur'an. None of the Jews, Christians and even Muslims are free from making mistakes. Therefore, when the Qur'an mentions Christians, we need to try and understand which Christians. They are not all same even though they are all called "Christians" or "Muslims".

It took me a long time before I realized that context must be understood if we are not to misinterpret the scriptures. We need to read and understand the words carefully. For example, the Qur'an does not say that the Christians are nearer to Islam but close in love to the believers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
". . . and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" -Quran (5:82).
The reason is given in this verse as to why we would find certain Christians loving the believers. Such Christians learn the scriptures well, they do not have love for the material world and greed and they are not arrogant but are humble people. Such Christians will not wage war on believers (in the Qur'an) and we too are commanded to deal justly with such Christians. We must not attack them (or anyone else for that matter) first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Where is the the divide than, when Allah says Himself(and or Herself/Other) that Christians are very near Islam. The Quran says for Muslims to have great respect for the Scripture of the so called "People of the Book".
In reality, there is no divide. Any divide is similar to divide between Christians and Christians and divide between Muslims and Muslims. The simple cause is "envy" and "pride".

Regardless of what each group call itself, according to the Qur'an it is believing in God and doing of the good deeds that will lead a human to his/her salvation. This is what we do rather than what we call ourselves. God has given each group certain instructions and acts of devotion to perform. The Qur'an instructs us to think that we are in a race to do good deeds. The winners will be those who have done more of the good deeds by obeying God whether it is within the Christian group or between the Christians and Muslims.

First between the Christians (followers of the Book) and then between both (Christians and Muslims):

[3.113-114] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's verses in the nighttime and they adore (Him). They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed.


We are all in a race to do good deeds. We are not in a race to see who can beat up the other more. I am to see if I am doing good deeds for my salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
"And do not argue with the "People of the Scripture" except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims in submission to Him." -Quran (29:46)
True!
We are to obey the same God. No point in arguing how many angels or which angels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
God(Allah) was only pointing out false Jews and Christians but not true believers. I've only read the first 8 books of the Catholic Bible in their entirety:Genesis:Exodus:Leviticus:Numbers: Deuteronomy:Joshua:Judges:Ruth: Though I have read most of the Book of Enoch and most of the Gospels. Nowhere in the Quran does it say Jews and Christians tampered with previous scripture(Bible). God(Allah) merely states that the Quran is the perfect book.
There is no mention of Book of Enoch in the Qur'an. There is mention of what was given to Moses and what was given to Jesus to preach. We believe in both revelations. The charge in the Qur'an against the Jews and Christians is not that they tampered with what was preached by both Moses and Jesus but that they did not keep up with what they were commanded to keep up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous Messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the Universe." - Quran(10:36)
Correct. It confirms what was revealed through Moses and Jesus to the Bani Israel (the only existing believers at the time). The Qur'an is for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
God(Allah) implies that their is a such thing a true Christians, Jews and Sabians(Possibly Mandaeans). How than can the scriptures of Christians claiming the existence of Fallen Angels be false? Allah says it's the doctrines of Christianity that could be wrong, Such as God being Three and not One, but NOT the Scripture itself.
Allah does not mention any fallen angels in the Qur'an. The only angels that came to earth, and are mentioned in the Qur'an, came as a trial rather than were fallen.

[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman (Solomon) was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

The fallen angels you are talking about are supposed to have come even before Noah and the flood. The world started again with the righteous family of Noah after the flood. No more wicked people or even fallen angels (even if there were any) were left after the wrath of God. No more giants or fallen angels after the flood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
"O People of Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and HIS WORD which He directed to Mary and a Soul (created at a command) from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." -Quran(4:171)

I'm not saying the Christian Scripture is flawless like the Quran, but Christian scripture is stated to be truthful in the Quran.
Christian scriptures must be only what was given first to Moses and then to Jesus. There were no Christians before that. And of course Christians are commanded to believe in what has been revealed through the Qur'an.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Over 50 million Orthodox Christians consider the Book of Enoch to be a part of the Bible. Almost 2.3 billion Christians see the Book of Revelation as a Book of the Bible. Both books talk about Fallen Angels and directly names over 20 Fallen Angels by Name. How can any Muslim justify the denying of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures?
Did Jesus mention this book? Did Jesus tell you that the angels can have sex with human and marry humans? He had different view of angels. Did even Moses mention this book? I don't think so. It was written by people a long time after the flood or even exodus and after Moses. All the written books were destroyed during the Babylonian attack and the captivity.
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