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Old 06-01-2018, 08:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
As I said, read it. How are you going to explain us what the Quran says when you have not read it and expect to be taken seriously. You should not answer questions about Islam.
I have read and studied the Qur'an but not "coran". Perhaps you didn't understand what I had stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Homosexuality does bring people to hell, I will post additional evidence when I get back home.
And I look forward to your "evidence".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The verse about the people whose deeds are preponderant does not apply to those who commit capital sins and do not repent. There is extensive evidence of this in the Quran and the hadith as well.
Exactly the point about homosexuality too. Therefore, it is not a sure way to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The criteria for going to hell is broader than not believing.
Yes, it's broader. It's broader than not believing. It's not believing plus doing bad deeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Not praying, for example, is another way to hell. And so is praying late, after the time. I will post the verses later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Chapter 107 verses 4-5

And woe to those who pray *

Who are totally heedless of their prayers.

*The original word is the waylun. Waylun is actually a river, or a valley, in hell.
So in these 2 verses, who are those who pray but are totally heedless of their prayers?

And river, or a valley to those who pray *
???

So you could pray but still go to the river or a valley, in hell? It illustrates my point.

[29.45] Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.

So praying is a training ground to keep you away from doing bad deeds. What's the point of praying if you are going to kill a peaceful person after praying?


And the word is "fawaylun" and not "wawaylun". The same word is in 19:37, 43:65 and in 52:11. And in each one of these verses, it is about those who did not believe rather than about homosexuals or those who prayed or did not pray at all (totally heedless of praying).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Chapter 25 verses 68-71

They never implore beside God any other god, nor do they kill any soul—for God has made life sacred—except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery*. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.


Retribution is doubled for them on the Day of Resurrection, and they abide therein humiliated.


Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits.

God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


Those who repent and lead a righteous life, God redeems them; a complete redemption.


*the arabic word ( zina) includes all types of sexual misbehavior.
So a homosexual who repents and does good deeds is not on sure way to hell. Correct?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The verses above make it clear that a number of offenses will bring the perpetrators to hell, however if they ask for forgiveness and change their ways they will receive remission of their sins.

It should also be noted that hell is a general threat and paradise a general promise, while the individuals on judgement day will be treated according to the specifics of their case.
Only those repent who believe. Thus sure way to hell is not believing and doing bad deeds. Bad deeds include zina, killing without just cause, quarreling, stealing, lying and all the other acts (deeds) that should not be done by God's khalifah on earth.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:29 PM
 
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You are here to argue, but I am not interested in arguing with you. I am interested in answering the OP's question. However, inaccuracies you stated need correction, as you might misguide uninformed readers.


Quote:
And the word is "fawaylun" and not "wawaylun"
The word is not fawaylun. The word is not wawaylun. As I said, it is waylun. Fawaylun, that's two words.

Quote:
So a homosexual who repents and does good deeds is not on sure way to hell. Correct?
Is it not what I said ? The same applies to any act, including disbelief.

Quote:
Thus sure way to hell is not believing and doing bad deeds
Incorrect. I have posted previously verses which show that bad deeds in itself lead a person in hell if they are grave enough, including homosexuality, or not praying, or praying late deliberately. You can read and understand, or not.


Edit : I just found out you do not even believe in authentic hadith from Bukhari, or Muslim. You are not a sunni muslim and you are misguided on almost every religious topic you tackle. God help us.
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Old 06-02-2018, 05:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
You are here to argue, but I am not interested in arguing with you. I am interested in answering the OP's question. However, inaccuracies you stated need correction, as you might misguide uninformed readers.
You have yet to correct me that homosexuality is not stated in the Qur'an as "sure way to hell".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The word is not fawaylun. The word is not wawaylun. As I said, it is waylun. Fawaylun, that's two words.
Fawaylun in the verse 107:4 is one word (فَوَيْلٌ. And the verse 107:4 you had quoted in English reads "and woe". There is no "wa waylun" in the verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Is it not what I said ? The same applies to any act, including disbelief.
Then it is not "sure way to hell".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Incorrect. I have posted previously verses which show that bad deeds in itself lead a person in hell if they are grave enough, including homosexuality, or not praying, or praying late deliberately. You can read and understand, or not.
What if someone repents and amends?
Do you believe in the following verses?

[7.8] And the weighing on that day will be just; then as for him whose weight (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall have salvation;

[7.9] And as for him whose weight
(of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our ayat.

[18.107] Surely
(as for) those who believe and do good deeds, their place of entertainment shall be the gardens of paradise.

[18.110] Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.

[20.75] And whoever comes to Him a believer
(and) he has done good deeds indeed, these it is who shall have the high ranks.

[23.102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these will have salvation.

[23.103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell.


The criteria for qualifying either for paradise or hell is made loud and clear in these verses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Edit : I just found out you do not even believe in authentic hadith from Bukhari, or Muslim.
Now that is what I call "arguing" in this forum. Did I say anywhere that I do not believe in authentic hadith from Bukhari, or Muslim? If not, you want to argue with me in this forum.

Here is answer for your argument:

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith (أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ), a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۖ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
You are not a sunni muslim and you are misguided on almost every religious topic you tackle. God help us.
Speak for yourself; not for "us"!

So you think that sunni muslims are the only ones guided. How pathetic! As a prophet, he never lied. You are sunni muslim only if you have never lied. Yes?

[6.159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you are not with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

You want to be part of any sunni sect? Which one (there are several)?
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Fawaylun in the verse 107:4 is one word (فَوَيْلٌ. And the verse 107:4 you had quoted in English reads "and woe". There is no "wa waylun" in the verse.

Fa waylun in arabic is two words. The most accurate way to translate it to english is "and woe". You are confused because you think "and" can only be said as "wa", and because you see the letters tied together in the arabic text. It comes back several times in the Quran, here are some examples.



Meaning of the word Waylun.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
These are made up by men (notice the contradiction in Sahih Muslim) over 200 years after the Qur'an was revealed.

The authentic hadith are a revelation.

Last edited by Sorel36; 06-02-2018 at 08:42 PM..
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Old 06-03-2018, 10:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Fa waylun in arabic is two words. The most accurate way to translate it to english is "and woe". You are confused because you think "and" can only be said as "wa", and because you see the letters tied together in the arabic text. It comes back several times in the Quran, here are some examples.

Meaning of the word Waylun.
You had stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Chapter 107 verses 4-5

And woe to those who pray *

Who are totally heedless of their prayers.

*The original word is the waylun. Waylun is actually a river, or a valley, in hell.
In the Arabic text, fawaylun (فَوَيْلٌ) is one word as you can clearly see. It is made up of prefixed resumption particle and noun. It is translated in two words in English. This is how Arabic grammar works. The first part of the word (fa) is prefixed resumption particle. When used as prefixed resumption particle with waylun (woe) it becomes one word "fawaylun" (so woe, in English). This resumption particle is used to connect what is stated before it with what is stated after it.

This brings me to ask you again, and I hope you won't dodge answering the question once more, who are "those who pray" in the verse 107:4 and why do you think that they will end up in valley or river of hell?

Could it be that you are one of "those who pray" but still end up in the river or valley of hell?

You began to argue with me with the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
As I said, read it. How are you going to explain us what the Quran says when you have not read it and expect to be taken seriously. You should not answer questions about Islam.
You didn't even understand what I had stated. It was "coran" that I had not read instead of the Qur'an. It is often the hadith churners who understand little about the Qur'an. All they rely upon is hadith this and hadith that when Allah (SWT) has clearly asked them in a pre-emptive strike through the Qur'an:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?

Allah's ayat are documented in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is complete. Some of the revelations from Allah for us are not left out of the Qur'an for Bukhari or Muslim to write them down over 200 years later. The Qur'an is The Best Hadith. It is not hadith (حَدِيث) but "alhadith" (الْحَدِيث). Wherever in the Qur'an the word is "alhadith", it is a reference to the revelation from Allah and wherever the word is "hadith", it is reference to the sayings, stories or tales of people or by the people at large.

Quote:
Edit : I just found out you do not even believe in authentic hadith from Bukhari, or Muslim. You are not a sunni muslim and you are misguided on almost every religious topic you tackle. God help us.
This is the big problem with the most hadith churning Muslims today. They are quick to tell others who is going to hell and who not when they themselves do not know whether they are going to hell or not. I can tell you quite plainly, if you have ever lied in your adulthood, you are not a sunni. The prophet never lied.

And to tell me that I am misguided is another mistake. Only Allah knows who is misguided and who is on the right guidance (28:85).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
No. Only ALHADITH is revelation; not hadith.

[17.9] Surely this Qur'an guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.

[28.85] Most surely He Who has made the Qur'an binding on you will bring you back to the destination. Say: My Lord knows best him who has brought the guidance and him who is in manifest error.

No mention of hadith books being made binding upon us. Had any hadith been revelation from Allah it would have been included in the Qur'an or at least written down there and then in the presence of the messenger.

And on the Day of Judgment, the messenger isn't going to cry that his people had forsaken hadith books but the Qur'an:

[25.30] And the messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.
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Old 06-03-2018, 02:13 PM
 
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The fact that a prefix is attached does not mean it is going to become one word that exists in the language. If you were to say fa waylun to a native speaker he indeed would recognize the word fa and the word waylun. You are off with your remarks.

I have answered the OP's question and am not interested in debating with someone who rejects bukhari and muslim books and views them as a fabrication. Go and find your religion. Whoever rejects hadiths is on the wrong path and misguided according to all muslim scholars who preserved the Quran, the hadiths and their teachings. This is a consensus among the muslim community except for a few deviants.

Last edited by Sorel36; 06-03-2018 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 06-05-2018, 04:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The fact that a prefix is attached does not mean it is going to become one word that exists in the language.
It is written as one word. All can see it written as one word. This is how Arabic grammar is incorporated in the language. The original word is not "waylun" as you claimed but "wayl" (وَيْل). The Arabic word "wayl" is translated "woe" into English. If you want to say "so woe", you can say in one word of Arabic.
In the Qur'an, فَوَيْلٌ ("fawaylun") is one word made up of two morphological segments:
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran)

You can clearly see it stated as one word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I have answered the OP's question and am not interested in debating with someone who rejects bukhari and muslim books and views them as a fabrication.
Someone who has forsaken the Qur'an and assumed bukhari and muslim books as revelations from Allah can't debate with someone who has studied the Qur'an and can refute argument using the verses of the Qur'an. I rely on the Qur'an, the Book of Allah, and you rely on books of men like bukhari and muslim.

[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَٰذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ


If you want to debate about Islam, you need to study and understand the Qur'an first. Relying only on bukhari and muslim books will soon get you into BIG problem. After studying and understanding the Qur'an, you may of course read the hadith books and be able to see which hadith complies with Alhadith and which does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Go and find your religion.
My religion is al-islam and I am a Muslim. Islam was perfected with the revelation of the Qur'an 5:3. Your religion was perhaps begun over 200 years later when bukhari and muslim wrote hadith books. What's your religion; sunni?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Whoever rejects hadiths is on the wrong path and misguided according to all muslim scholars who preserved the Quran, the hadiths and their teachings.
Is that why you couldn't answer the important question asked by Allah (SWT) in the following verse of the Qur'an:

[45.6] These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۖ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Perhaps you didn't even know that the word "hadith" is in that verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
This is a consensus among the muslim community except for a few deviants.
The deviant ones are the ones who have forsaken ALHADITH, The Best Hadith, (The Hadith of Allah) and know only the hadith books of bukhari, muslim and a few others. They have deviated from the Book of Allah to books of bukhari and muslim.
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Old 06-06-2018, 05:26 PM
 
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I have quoted scholarly sources, and the entirety of the traditional scholars rely and teach both Quran and hadith. Isolated misguided people who reject hadith can only be found on the internet, as they are virtually non existent in the muslim ummah. The quranists do not have any scholars, nor do they have any mosque anywhere (maybe there is one somewhere...). Many will not consider them muslims, as for me, I am not sure of they are muslims or not.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I have quoted scholarly sources, and the entirety of the traditional scholars rely and teach both Quran and hadith.
They deliberately ignore the words of Allah (SWT) in the verse 45:6. They don't even translate the word "hadith" as "hadith" in case the truth comes out in the open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Isolated misguided people who reject hadith can only be found on the internet, as they are virtually non existent in the muslim ummah.
That's why the muslim ummah is being clobbered left right and center today. Hadith churning self proclaimed muslim ummah is being punished by Allah (SWT) for having left His revelation and gone astray just as others before them were punished for ignoring Allah's words and leaving the straight path. Don't pretend, muslim ummah is no longer an ummah but bunch of sects at each others' throats. Sunni is only one of those sects.

[6.159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you are not to be with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

Today, so called muslim ummah is in name only but divided into sects (sunni is only one of them). Yet the messengers were commanded not to be with those who break their religion into sects. I follow the guidance to the messengers not to be with those who break their religion into sects. I am with no sect. I regard myself a Muslim rather than sunni, shia, whabi, mirzai or any of the subsets of them.

[23.52] And surely this your community is one community and I am your Lord, therefore be conscious of Me.

[23.53] But they divided themselves into factions (sects), each rejoicing in that which is with them.

[23.54] So leave them in their overwhelming ignorance till a time.


Each self-proclaimed sect is in ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
The quranists do not have any scholars, nor do they have any mosque anywhere (maybe there is one somewhere...).
That's the mindset of individuals in divided sects. They think that they have to have their own sect's mosque and expect every other sect to have their own mosque. I went to visit my mother last March and I could hear call for prayer from each sect's mosque; most of them at about the same time. If you are not part of their sect, you are misguided they claim. No wonder they have only hate for each other!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
Many will not consider them muslims, as for me, I am not sure of they are muslims or not.
Who are quranists and who are hadithists? Perhaps you are not sure which ones are in muslim sect and which are not.

And I too am not sure why sectarian muslims are hell bent on denouncing non-sectarian muslims as non-muslims. Why so much hate even in the month of Ramadhan? Is shaytan really locked up during the month of Ramadhan?
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:44 PM
 
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We, as human, can not know who will go to heave and who won't. That is for Allah to decide on day of judgment. That will be based on our action on earth (good and bad deeds). There is no point system that human can use because we have very limited knowledge of earth, very uni-deminsional. Yes engaging in homosexuality is a bad deed but we don't now what else this person has done and will do in his/her lifetime. Judgement is in Allah's hand.
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