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Old 03-03-2019, 11:18 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
All Muslims (100% Sunnis) in where I live believe touching the black stone & the Yemeni conrner stone erases their sins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Have they all told you so or are you imagining it?
Many sunnis have gone there and never even touched the black stone. It's silly to claim that if we don't kiss the black stone our sins will not be forgiven. I have been there many times and did not kiss the black stone even once.

The reason given in the Qur'an is different for sins being forgiven and not kissing the black stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
You mean you missed this? What a pity. Millions are are benefiting from it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_8gCj2Blo
So you based your claim on a youtube video rather than talking to all of them. Did you see "All Muslims (100% Sunnis) in where you live" in that video?

You also need to know that many Sunnis who go there do not get to kiss the black stone. I have been there many times, within 50cm of the black stone, but not once I had kissed the black stone. It is not a requirement to kiss the black stone for the sins to be forgiven. As I stated earlier on, the reason given in the Qur'an for the sins to be forgiven is different.

Last edited by Khalif; 03-03-2019 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: additional point
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Note: City-Data TOS require English only. If you post something in a different language, you should provide a translation.
The point I had to make was that most people walk away from the Qur'an because they can't read Arabic. The real Qur'an is in Arabic. The rest are translations only and these vary in some words. Only the Arabic Qur'ans do not vary from each other.

Here are English translations of the two verses:
بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
Transliteration: Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

Asad : IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:
Khattab: In the Name of Allah—the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.
Malik : In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Pickthall: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Yusuf Ali: In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful.

الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Transliteration: Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameena

Asad : ALL PRAISE is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,
Khattab: All praise is for Allah—Lord of all worlds,
Malik : All praise is for Allah, the 'Rabb' of the Worlds.
Pickthall: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
Yusuf Ali: Praise be to Allah the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds.
http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/1/2
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
So you based your claim on a youtube video rather than talking to all of them. Did you see "All Muslims (100% Sunnis) in where you live" in that video?

You also need to know that many Sunnis who go there do not get to kiss the black stone. I have been there many times, within 50cm of the black stone, but not once I had kissed the black stone. It is not a requirement to kiss the black stone for the sins to be forgiven. As I stated earlier on, the reason given in the Qur'an for the sins to be forgiven is different.
Why are you harping on your own personal belief & account of event only? Miilions do believe touching the stone relieves them of sin & there are thousands of videos. Even my Muslim relatives believe so because it is in the hadiths as I showed you earlier. The following video shows how a passionate Muslimah achieved her goal to clean her sins & the struggle she had to go though especially when the male pilgrims are not allowed to wear undergarment!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncMdZNzZDU
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:08 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Why are you harping on your own personal belief & account of event only?
So that you understand that my personal belief is based on the Qur'an; the Word of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Millions do believe touching the stone relieves them of sin & there are thousands of videos.
Have you met those millions? Have they read the Qur'an and understood it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Even my Muslim relatives believe so because it is in the hadiths as I showed you earlier.
Your Muslim relatives are to believe the Qur'an before they believe any hadith.

[45.6] These are the ayat (verses) of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat (verses)?
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۖ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Allah's ayat say that it is believing and doing good acts that will qualify you for forgiveness. No mention of kissing the black stone for forgiveness of your sins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
The following video shows how a passionate Muslimah achieved her goal to clean her sins & the struggle she had to go though especially when the male pilgrims are not allowed to wear undergarment!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncMdZNzZDU
Did she tell you or did God tell you that her sins were cleansed by that one act? Showing that video doesn't prove your point.
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Old 03-05-2019, 07:22 PM
 
24 posts, read 3,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
So that you understand that my personal belief is based on the Qur'an; the Word of Allah.

Have you met those millions? Have they read the Qur'an and understood it?

Your Muslim relatives are to believe the Qur'an before they believe any hadith.

[45.6] These are the ayat (verses) of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat (verses)?
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۖ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ


Allah's ayat say that it is believing and doing good acts that will qualify you for forgiveness. No mention of kissing the black stone for forgiveness of your sins.

Did she tell you or did God tell you that her sins were cleansed by that one act? Showing that video doesn't prove your point.
It's very funny of you sitting in a kafir land telling what my Muslim relatives in an Islamic land aught to believe. Btw, pilgrims are not allowed to wear underwear at the Kaaba. Does the Quran instruct that? No. So you broke the rule & wore your spender? Islam is not about the Quran only. As I said, Quran only Muslims like you are labelled heretics in my place. Muslims themselves can't agree what Islam is. Sunnis & Shias especially been slaughtering each other last 1400 year. All the best to you to fix that first before trying to teach the kafirs.
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:35 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
It's very funny of you sitting in a kafir land telling what my Muslim relatives in an Islamic land aught to believe.
Two points:

(1) The land I live in is Allah's land. I have never called it a kafir land.

(2) Your relatives are not believers in the Qur'an unless they believe the Qur'an. The Qur'an makes clear the criteria for ones sins being forgiven. Anyone who doesn't believe that is not a believer or Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
btw, pilgrims are not allowed to wear underwear at the Kaaba. Does the Quran instruct that? No.
You are talking nonsense here.

This discussion is not about wearing underwear.

The women pilgrims do wear underwear. Are their sins not going to be forgiven?

Further, FYI, most of the times men are wearing underwear even at the kaaba. The only times they don't is during umrah and hajj when in the state of ihram. They are wearing underwear at the kaaba at all other times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
So you broke the rule & wore your spender?
It's not a rule at the kaaba. They were not wearing underwear at the time (1400 years ago) anyway. The tradition carries on. So it's not a rule but a tradition. And how do you know that I wore my spender or not? Did you see me in your dream wearing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Islam is not about the Quran only.
It is about the Qur'an first and not about hadith of men first. It is about Allah's Hadith only. Islam is not man-made and it is not named after any man.

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah lets err, there is no guide for him.
اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُتَشَابِهًا مَثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَىٰ ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ


I follow Allah's guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
As I said, Quran only Muslims like you are labelled heretics in my place.
That's another thing they are not supposed to do as Muslims; label other Muslims in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Muslims themselves can't agree what Islam is.
Only those who do not read the Qur'an or understand the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
Sunnis & Shias especially been slaughtering each other last 1400 year.
Human beings have been slaughtering each other since the beginning of the mankind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yragnitup View Post
All the best to you to fix that first before trying to teach the kafirs.
I don't teach kafirs; they are a lost cause. They don't believe what their relatives believe. Their minds are closed. Read 39:23, Allah is letting them err. There is no guide for them after they have rejected Allah's guidance.

[7.193] And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.

[19.76] And Allah increases in guidance those who go aright; and ever-abiding good works are with your Lord best in recompense and best in yielding fruit.

[22.8] And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and without guidance and without an illuminating book.

[27.77] And most surely it is a guidance and a mercy for the believers.

[45.6] These are ayat
(verses) of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat (verses)?

Anyone who does not believe in 45:6 is not a believer. Anyone who does not act upon this verse is not a Muslim regardless of the number of times he kisses the black stone or takes his pants off.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Two points:

(1) The land I live in is Allah's land. I have never called it a kafir land.

(2) Your relatives are not believers in the Qur'an unless they believe the Qur'an. The Qur'an makes clear the criteria for ones sins being forgiven. Anyone who doesn't believe that is not a believer or Muslim.

You are talking nonsense here.

This discussion is not about wearing underwear.

The women pilgrims do wear underwear. Are their sins not going to be forgiven?

Further, FYI, most of the times men are wearing underwear even at the kaaba. The only times they don't is during umrah and hajj when in the state of ihram. They are wearing underwear at the kaaba at all other times.

It's not a rule at the kaaba. They were not wearing underwear at the time (1400 years ago) anyway. The tradition carries on. So it's not a rule but a tradition. And how do you know that I wore my spender or not? Did you see me in your dream wearing it?

It is about the Qur'an first and not about hadith of men first. It is about Allah's Hadith only. Islam is not man-made and it is not named after any man.

[39.23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah lets err, there is no guide for him.
اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُتَشَابِهًا مَثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَىٰ ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ


I follow Allah's guidance.

That's another thing they are not supposed to do as Muslims; label other Muslims in any way.

Only those who do not read the Qur'an or understand the Qur'an.

Human beings have been slaughtering each other since the beginning of the mankind.


I don't teach kafirs; they are a lost cause. They don't believe what their relatives believe. Their minds are closed. Read 39:23, Allah is letting them err. There is no guide for them after they have rejected Allah's guidance.

[7.193] And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.

[19.76] And Allah increases in guidance those who go aright; and ever-abiding good works are with your Lord best in recompense and best in yielding fruit.

[22.8] And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and without guidance and without an illuminating book.

[27.77] And most surely it is a guidance and a mercy for the believers.

[45.6] These are ayat
(verses) of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat (verses)?

Anyone who does not believe in 45:6 is not a believer. Anyone who does not act upon this verse is not a Muslim regardless of the number of times he kisses the black stone or takes his pants off.
The major Muslim belief that Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael is not in the Quran at all. And, it is only in secondary Islamic written books concerning Muhammad being related to Ishmael and thus Abraham. It is generally understood that in order to be a Muslim you have to believe Muhammad is an Ishmaelite. But, this is not said in the Quran at all. I'm not attacking Islam. But, 85% of Muslims are Sunni. And, in order to be a Sunni you have to believe in Hadith. Only 2% of Muslims deny all Hadith. And, if you deny other Islamic secondary writtings what right do you have believing Muhammad is blood relative to Abraham?
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The major Muslim belief that Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael is not in the Quran at all.
Islam is not subject to Muhammad being a descendant of Ishmael. Islam is neither Muhammanism nor Ishmaelism. Islam is Islam. It is not named after any man or a genealogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
And, it is only in secondary Islamic written books concerning Muhammad being related to Ishmael and thus Abraham.
It is not a requirement to be a Muslim to believe that Muhammad is related to Ishmael and Abraham even if he is. None of the tenets/pillars of Islam include such requirement. Islam can stand on its own even without such belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
It is generally understood that in order to be a Muslim you have to believe Muhammad is an Ishmaelite.
Generally understood? By whom? It is a false understanding about being a Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
But, this is not said in the Quran at all.
Then it is not a requirement to be a Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
I'm not attacking Islam. But, 85% of Muslims are Sunni. And, in order to be a Sunni you have to believe in Hadith.
Wrong understanding again.

Where does it say that one has to believe in hadith (other than the Hadith of Allah) to be a Sunni?

A Sunni is someone who follows Sunnah of the Prophet. Sunnah of the Prophet is not his sayings but his actions of obeying the commands in the Qur'an which are from Allah. In other words, such sunnah is intrinsically linked to the revelations of Allah. It doesn't have body of its own, the reason it is not even mentioned in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Only 2% of Muslims deny all Hadith.
None deny the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
And, if you deny other Islamic secondary writtings what right do you have believing Muhammad is blood relative to Abraham?
So you want Muslims to believe other writings too to be Muslims?

I don't have to believe that Muhammad is blood relative to Abraham to be a Muslim even if he is. The only verse of the Qur'an that comes near to such belief is (but it doesn't say so literally):

[2.124] And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an imam of people. Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

Imams (descendants of Abraham) are the messengers and the prophets who guided people with the commands of Allah (revelations from Allah) and they were not unjust.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Islam is not subject to Muhammad being a descendant of Ishmael. Islam is neither Muhammanism nor Ishmaelism. Islam is Islam. It is not named after any man or a genealogy.

It is not a requirement to be a Muslim to believe that Muhammad is related to Ishmael and Abraham even if he is. None of the tenets/pillars of Islam include such requirement. Islam can stand on its own even without such belief.

Generally understood? By whom? It is a false understanding about being a Muslim.

Then it is not a requirement to be a Muslim.

Wrong understanding again.

Where does it say that one has to believe in hadith (other than the Hadith of Allah) to be a Sunni?

A Sunni is someone who follows Sunnah of the Prophet. Sunnah of the Prophet is not his sayings but his actions of obeying the commands in the Qur'an which are from Allah. In other words, such sunnah is intrinsically linked to the revelations of Allah. It doesn't have body of its own, the reason it is not even mentioned in the Qur'an.

None deny the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an).

So you want Muslims to believe other writings too to be Muslims?

I don't have to believe that Muhammad is blood relative to Abraham to be a Muslim even if he is. The only verse of the Qur'an that comes near to such belief is (but it doesn't say so literally):

[2.124] And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an imam of people. Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

Imams (descendants of Abraham) are the messengers and the prophets who guided people with the commands of Allah (revelations from Allah) and they were not unjust.
In case you are not aware, sayings "speaking words" are an action. Let me just say this, I can't say I'm Catholic if I deny the Catechism. But, "Catholics" do it all the time. For example you can be a Catholic and be a sinner. But, you can't be a Catholic and say porn and abortion are a good thing. The same Token with Islam. If the Imams say Hadith are valid it doesn't seem fair for some to claim being a Muslim to deny a recognized Imam in my opinion as a Catholic.

My religion formally recognized Islam in the Catechism. Some Catholics believe Muslims are not saved. So-called Catholics that believe this are not following the teaching of the Church.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:44 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
In case you are not aware, sayings "speaking words" are an action.
In that case, in Islamic context, not every word said by Muhammad (pbuh) is an action that we have to emulate or follow. For example, he said to his adopted son, Zaid, not to divorce his wife (Qur'an 33:37). Zaid did divorce his wife. Zaid proved that not every saying of Muhammad is an action that Muslims must follow.

The action of Muhammad that Muslims must follow is the one that is required by a command from Allah (SWT), is for Muhammad as well as for Muslims at large. And that is Sunnah/action and not hadith/saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Let me just say this, I can't say I'm Catholic if I deny the Catechism.
That is not the case in Islam. The only Hadith a Muslim can't deny is the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an and the previous revelations from Allah).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
But, "Catholics" do it all the time.
Muslims are not Catholics and Islam is not Catholicism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
For example you can be a Catholic and be a sinner.
We are all sinners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
But, you can't be a Catholic and say porn and abortion are a good thing.
Maybe not openly but in secret they can and do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
The same Token with Islam. If the Imams say Hadith are valid it doesn't seem fair for some to claim being a Muslim to deny a recognized Imam in my opinion as a Catholic.
The imams mentioned in my previous post are not any imams of today (clerics) but the messengers and the prophets, Abraham and his descendants who were chosen by Allah to deliver His message to the people. Not every descendant of Abraham was an imam in that context. For example, those 3000 killed after worshiping the golden calf were also descendants of Abraham but not chosen as imams. Many of the Arab kuffar who had opposed Muhammad at the time were descendants of Abraham but only Muhammad was chosen as imam to deliver the message.

So please do not mix up different types of imams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
My religion formally recognized Islam in the Catechism.
Does it recognize Muhammad as messenger of God? If not, it doesn't recognize Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Some Catholics believe Muslims are not saved. So-called Catholics that believe this are not following the teaching of the Church.
That's their problem.
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