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Old 08-08-2019, 01:39 AM
 
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I am going to respond only to the relevant to this forum parts of the last post in reverse order:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Muslims only want Islam and the Quran to be thought of in the context of a reality that does not exist. If someone trying to create a new religion had walked into the Mosque in Saudi Arabia today and demanded that Allah is not god and began to disrupt and create problems, the Muslims would ask him to leave. Then they would force him to leave if it was necessary. For this person to return and demand his armies or militants to slaughter all Muslims in the Mosque, only if they attack you. Of course, they are going to attempt to drive you out and away from their Islamic Mosques and properties.
What if originally that “someone” is worshipping his One God only at home or outside the city and those from the temple go after him for worshipping One God? Would they have the right to expel him from his own home?
Nobody had entered the temple before the Pagans had started killing Muslims in Mecca. You need to get your fact in order if you want to come in this forum to criticise Islam or Muhammad.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
The fact is that later - Muhammad did give praise to the three daughters of Allah..

- Allat, Alla-Uzza and Manat. Mohammad confirmed their existence as deities is important to Allah and that they intercede spiritually before Allah.
An utter lie!
Muhammad never claimed anything like that. I don’t think you have tried to read the Qur’an 53:23.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad disrupted and caused a disturbance to the business, commerce and trade of the Meccans’s - when they asked him to stop, he refused - so they forced him to leave their properties.
Not just leave but they were going to kill him the night he left Mecca. Many of his fellow Muslims had already left Mecca by then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad then started the conflict and violence - BY REFUSING TO TRUST IN HIS GOD TO SUSTAIN HIM. Instead, he attacked them on their property, in their city, entered into their temple just because they asked him to leave them alone.
Muhammad did not "start" the violence, fighting and killing. Meccan Pagans did. I am sure you know that he was forced to leave Mecca and his belongings were looted by the Meccans 10 years earlier. He was right to make them pay the price for 22 years of persecution and wars waged on Muslims.
By the way, do you know how many of those same Meccan Pagans were killed by Muhammad after returning from exile of 10 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
How is this the protection of Allah ? You disrupt a business and are asked to leave their properties alone, then you refuse and are forced to leave, and then you return back to the properties belonging to others, to a business that does not belong to you - and you completely violently destroy everything and then proceed to violently attack, kill and violently make war on people - when you are on and in - THEIR personal property, in their place of business.
If Meccan Pagans could do all that to Muhammad and his followers then Muhammad had the right to do the same against Meccan Pagans. You can’t clap with one hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
If Mohammad had trusted in his god to protect him, he would have respected the property, belongings, the lands and homes and temple of others. And Mohammad would have waited on his god to provide everything he needed to live and sustain himself.
Muhammad did trust his God to provide him, and He did for 22 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
BUT ALLAH DID NOT PROVIDE, ALLAH DID NOT SUSTAIN, ALLAH DID NOT - soon enough give to - Mohammad what he needed to survive, so he began to attack and make war upon others on their property and in their place of business. Mohammad did not own the Kaaba and the land, it did not belong to him. He instead took their property and enslaved them.
On one hand you are claiming that Muhammad had destroyed their property but then you flip over and say that Muhammad needed their property to survive. Can’t you see that such arguments, refuting each other, don’t work against Muhammad?
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
He was asked to leave their business multiple times. He refused, so they forced him out.
They had no right to expel him from his home of 53 years. He hadn’t forced anyone to accept One God. He hadn’t violently kicked anyone and he hadn’t killed anyone. They didn’t want him to worship One God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad then returned and busted into their temple, entered their private business - into their place of business and went about smashing, shattering and breaking every image, destroying everything that they used to make a living.
That’s why the idol worshipping hasn’t returned to Mecca for 14 centuries now. They shouldn’t have expelled Muhammad from his own home 10 years earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
This was not Mohammad’s property, he did not own the land where the Kaaba existed, Mohammad did not have financial investments in the business. He had no right to destroy the property and business of the Meccans.
Pagans had no right to kill some Muslims, expel others and destroy some of their belongings.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad had no concern nor regards that their only way of making a living orbited around the service and maintenance of 360 idols and to hundreds of pagan deities.
It was the other way round. Meccans had no concern with One God only and wanted to kill those converting to Islam of One God. In fact they did start killing Muslims in Mecca first. The very first Muslim they had killed was a woman. You can see the full movie to see what had happened there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
They made it clear to Mohammad that they did not want his business in Mecca, they were not interested in his god in the Kaaba - while he was disrupting their way of making a living.
They were very foolish to have Muhammad “literally forcibly, violently kicked out of Mecca” when he wasn’t kicking violently anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad began to attempt to destroy their business and disrupt their system and go throughout Mecca propagating his NEW idea that there was only one god. When the Meccan people rejected him and asked him to leave or just stop disrupting their business, he refused. So the Meccan citizens drove him out in order to save their commerce, economic system, and business and their livelihood.
That was a foolish way to save their business by “literally forcibly, violently” kicking Muhammad and his fellow Muslims out of Mecca just for praying One God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcNzpmB3MM
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Also, the very reason that Pagans had never managed to kill Muhammad. Is because Mohammad use violence, torture, pain, suffering and warfare and theft of property and the promises of sexual pleasures - to continue to preach his message in Mecca.
How did they then manage Muhammad “literally forcibly, violently kicked out of Mecca” if he was so powerful? Don’t you think that such accusations about Muhammad are baseless?
You see, the difference between two of us is simple, I know a lot more about Islam and the Islamic history and you learn it from Islam hating sites. That’s why it’s easy for me to refute your arguments here in this forum. I have done my homework; you haven’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
The Meccan citizens had a business, a trade and successful generational entrepreneurship of providing services to travelers for hundreds of miles surrounding Mecca. For generations, the families worked and made a living taking care of the idols and provided services, pleasures, and victuals for the visitors who came to Mecca to worship and receive spiritual and physical gratifications.
That was peanuts compared to what happened later on, after all the idols were removed, in terms of successful entrepreneurship, service, making living, taking care, receiving spiritual gratification. Do you know how much business is done in Mecca every day now?
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
In fact the Bible shows that the Ishmaelites were enemies of God himself - and the enemies of Israel and God promises to completely destroy the seed of Ishmael totally.
A total lie!
Ishmaelites were always helping their cousins but the cousins were often treacherous. Remember what they did to their own father’s son Joseph? And who had rescued him after his brothers had left him for dead?
Ishmaelites are the only people ever to possess the land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great Euphrates in Iraq, given to the descendants of Abraham.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Also - The citation of Quran [23.83] - telling of some sort of claim that - our Ishmaelite descendants / fathers / aforetime - were given some sort of promises from god.
There are no such scriptures nor historical accounts anywhere that vindicates this.
They were aware of the ancient stories after interacting with Jews and Christians in Arabia.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
When Muhammad returned to conquer Mecca in 630, he ordered the forcible violent removal of anyone who refused to convert to Islam (Quran, 9:18-19)
So it was for your happiness that Muhammad was “literally forcibly, violently kicked out of Mecca” 10 years previously but it was for your disgust that the same Pagans were now facing the same treatment that they had meted out to Muhammad. I think that was justice fitting the crime of 10 years earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
We find the facts in - (Sura 2:191, 193) “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for fitna is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers… And fight them until fitna is no more, and religion is for Allah.
Very conveniently, you have left out the context (190, 192 and 194) including the second half of the verse 193. Do you know how many of them were slayed there in Mecca after these verses were revealed?
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Nearly everyone around Mohammad in Mecca was trying to make sure that Mohammad stopped disrupting their economic system and trading and business. Mecca did not belong to Mohammad.
Muhammad did nothing of the sort. Muhammad himself was a successful business man at the time and had no monetary interest in any idol business of Pagans.
You need to come up with a better idea against Muhammad than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
Mohammad and his agitators had entered into the Meccan’s temple and began to disrupt their private business and cause problems by mocking and deriding and scoffing and harmful things about their system of making a living. Mohammad did not OWN the temple if the Kaaba.
Muhammad did not enter into Meccan’s temple until 10 years AFTER he was “literally forcibly, violently kicked out of Mecca”. That’s 22 years in total since he began to worship One God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
The second reason that the Meccans did not want Muhammad to cause problems in their temple was that Mohammad was demanding possession and control of the Kaaba, the city’s public worship arena.
That’s an utter lie from Islam hating sites. Why should he demand any possession when he was actually offered the leadership and anything he wants as long as he doesn’t reject their 360 gods (idols)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imposcemathem View Post
The Meccans had no problem with Muslims circling the Kaaba, it was that Muslims wanted to prevent and get in the way of and disrupt everyone else from doing so.
Muslims were at the time praying at home. There is no way they would have circled a place full of idols. Muhammad himself used to go outside the city to the Cave Hira to pray there.
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