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Old 04-10-2008, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IbeDavid View Post
Thank you for your original post, but :

1. How do u as a Muslim reconcile the fact that the Creator in which you worship is an impersonal, unknowable, distant God (according to Islam teaching) yet you worship him on 'a personal' basis ?

2. If Mohammed is the greatest of all religious Prophets, and morality is important to a Muslim, how do u reconcile Mohammed being married to a 12 year old girl /having more wives than he allowed others to have/murdered and pillaged Travellers on numerous occasions, etc ??

3. How do you reconcile the Koran saying it was actually Judas Escariot who died on the cross and not Jesus...when Jesus' closest followers of 3 years were eye witnesses to his crucifixion , burial, and ressurection (in addition to over 500 other eye witnesses) ?

4. How do u reconcile God being holy and absolutely moral , yet providing virgins in heaven for the faithful Muslim Man in an envirnoment of endless sex (fornication) for eternity ?

Thank you for your time in answering these perplexing questions ive always had . Regards.
With no offence, your post is full of lies and mere fake anti Islamic propaganda.

Quote:
1. How do u as a Muslim reconcile the fact that the Creator in which you worship is an impersonal, unknowable, distant God (according to Islam teaching) yet you worship him on 'a personal' basis ?
God is not distant nor far, He is above time and place cause he created them, and he is nearer to the person form his neck veins.

"We verily created a man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein" holy Quran surah 50 Kaf, verso no 16.

"When my servants ask thee concerning me, i am indeed close (to them): i listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on me: let them also, with a will, listen to my call, and believe in me: that they may walk in the right way." holy Quran surah 2 Kaf, verso no 186.

Islam makes No proxy bet. the moslim and God, this is form Its best characteristics.

Quote:
2. If Mohammed is the greatest of all religious Prophets, and morality is important to a Muslim, how do u reconcile Mohammed being married to a 12 year old girl /having more wives than he allowed others to have....
The Prophet had only one wife from the age of 25 till about age 45, in his power and youth, then another one wife for about three years.

Having many wives was the normal trend of the age,

The increase in the no. of wives to 9 is due to logical reason for every marriage, examples are political religious alliance with new moslim tribes, political relation wit Egypt (maria from egypt), honoring the wives of the moslim dead in battles defending the state, Order by God to practically eliminate adoption by marring the divorced wife of his formal adopted boy (zaid ibn haretha), etc. (Note: This is to eliminate naming the adopted child after the adopter, and giving him heritance rights, etc, but adoption with no name change is permitted and encouraged).

As for Om almoamenin Asha, yes she was young when she married the prophet (peace be upon him), but this also was the normal state in all marriages then, they were fully mature in a young age, and very well prepared sociologically and physically for marriage.

Any girl in Islam has the full right to accept or refuse the marriage, just to note it out.

You're trying to apply today's' standards on 14 hundred centuries ago standards, this is totally illogic.

Aisha was the daughter of the prophet's (pbuh) closest companion Abu Bakr Elsedeek, her young age benefited Islam very much cause she had the mental ability to memories many of the prophet (pbuh) traditions, She was most respected in the parapet's life and after his death, she was from the most respected scholars of the age.

God then forbade the prophet (pbuh) from marring any other wives, so in essence he had less writes than the rest of moslims.

Note the having more than one wife is only permitted if you can equally treat them with respect and good manners, and of course money.

Quote:
/murdered and pillaged Travellers on numerous occasions, etc ??
This is a complete lie, (no offence), all the battles were in defense of the moslim state, stolen money, moslims write to talk to others about their religion, etc, And All were soldier to soldier battles NO ever civilian casualties.

This is a direct order from the Prophet (pbuh) and the holy Quran, to not ever hurt who do not fight.

Just a hint, All the arabians became willingly moslims afterwards, they were deeply touched by the high morals of the Prophet (pbuh).

Quote:
3. How do you reconcile the Koran saying it was actually Judas Escariot who died on the cross and not Jesus...when Jesus' closest followers of 3 years were eye witnesses to his crucifixion , burial, and ressurection (in addition to over 500 other eye witnesses) ?
"That they said (in boast), we killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not" holy Quran surah 4, verse no 157

When you look at an event you must look at the authenticity of the books telling this event, i put some hints in a previous post. (no offence)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt
This is what you believe, it's your choice.

But if you want you can search about the authenticity of this and does it really relate to jesus's (peace be upon him) words, the bibles were written hundred of years after jesus's death, there were many, then they choose four of them, interests and influences throughout centuries altered and faked lot of its content, and put a lot of pagan beliefs in it to suit the kings of the age.

Compare this with the authenticity and miracles of the holy Quran. The fact the holy Quran was written and memorized since the prophet (peace be upon him) life by Hundreds of thousands and though by millions throughout history, every moslim from the millions is a checker on each letter, every single letter is preserved.

The fact that It's the only religion that clearly frees God from all pagan fakes inserted in most religions now, including christianity (no offence).

It's the only religion now the summons people to worship God the one the only one, who is the creator of all things, has No son or wife, nothing is similar to him, can't be seen by our week eyes, but his presence is felt in every pure human heart, in the fabulous universe, in the smile of a child, in every thing.

I know that there are Unitarian christians who believe in God the one the only one, just to point it out, but sadly they are not the majority.

As for the miracles, there are the scientific miracles in the holy Quran, scientific facts in the holy Quran that has not been discovered till the twentieth century, told in the holy Quran 14 centuries ago, look in this sites for references,

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar

Commission on Scientific Signs

I intend to make a full thread on this by God Willing.

There's also the psychological miracle, but this can only be felt when hearing the holy Quran from a good reciter, or reciting after training.

There are also historical miracles, Like the It's telling of the successful war of Romans against Persians just after the Persians had won and became stronger, 7 years before the war.There is the law making miracles, like the summarizing of the whole inheritance laws in just one page, in a perfect mode, while it takes thousands of pages in any other law. The telling of the great city of Iram that was discovered very recently on southern Saudi Arabia. And the telling of the true historical events of the prophets (peace be upon them).

There are many miracles, which need lots of threads.

It's your choice to choose, but for your sake you can look and search, seek the truth in your heart. And compare, but first you should remove blind hatred from your heart, this will be a good start, after this you have your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IbeDavid
4. How do u reconcile God being holy and absolutely moral , yet providing virgins in heaven for the faithful Muslim Man in an envirnoment of endless sex (fornication) for eternity ?
This is also mere lies and ignorance of the concept of paradise in Islam. (no offence)

In paradise you are always in a very high delightful spiritual state thankful for God, you enjoy His blessings and pleasingly with no effort praise Him and thank Him.

You enjoy both spiritual and normal enjoyment, But this does Not include at all "an envirnoment of endless sex (fornication) for eternity". This is ridiculous, First of all there is NO fornication, all are legal wife or wives.

God did not say that every faithful moslim will have endless number of beautiful wives, he did not say even that it will be a big number, he said in general in the meaning of verses that good moslims will have good beautiful wives, it's as you say to a college class, I hope you all have good beautiful wives, husbands, This does not mean that every one of them will have many wives. This is logical understating of normal speech.

In fact the moslim can be very contented with just one wife in paradise, prophet's traditions clarified that enjoying just talking with her will be a great enjoyment.

And secondly comes sex with your legal wife in paradise, it is of course permissible and logic, pure lawful respectable sex is a great love relationship.

Pure respectable love is a great value here and in paradise, your need for your wife, and love for her strengthen your humanity, humbleness, and love for God, feeling of his great blessings on you.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 04-10-2008 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,331 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by IbeDavid View Post
And if i may ask one final question --- 5. Why is Mohammed considered 'the greatest of all Prophets' when Jesus fulfilled over 400 very narrow defined predictions about himself made hundreds of years in advance of his arrival, yet Mohammeds only 'fulfilled prophecy' was a self fulfilled prophecy of him returning from a trip to Mecca ?

Thank you kindly .
The prophecy of prophet mohamed (pbuh) was predicted by all major prophets including jesus (pbuh).

Theses predictions was erased from the so called written bibles (there were many bibles depending on the writers), and the bibles containing these predictions were neglected and hidden, Have you heard of the Bernaba bible, i guess you didn't.

And Jews erased all the predictions from the written torah.

Just a hint, A known authenticated fact is that Madina (Yathreb) the first moslim city converted to Islam from pagan religion due to the Jews predictions of the last prophet, here is a historical hint:

Why did many arabs in Yathreb (the first city in islam where moslims from Mecca imigrated to, after app. 13 years in Mecca), why did they believe in Islam and joind prophet Muhammed (pbuh), what's the main reason at first before they knew Islam well?

Believe or not, the reason was jews.
yes, jews who convinced them before to join islam.

Jews in Yathreb were tribes, app. four or five., the most important three were (Bano Kainokaa, Bano Al nadeer, and Bano Koriza)

The originally arabians in Yatherb were mainly two tribs, Al Aows, and Al Khazrag, they were the very majority of the city's population.
These two tribes were always at war before islam.

Half of jews were helping, and selling weapons to Al Aows, and the other half were helping Al khazrag.
(Bano Al nadeer and Bano Koriza helping Al Aows, and Bano Kainokaa helping Al Khazrag)

But among themselves, jews were somehow united, they wanted to get full control of the city although they're not the majority.
So jews always was threatening Al Aows, and Al Khazrag, and mocking them cause they're pagans, they always threatened them that a prohet from God will appear in the arabian lands, and that they (jews) will join him, and kill them (the pagans) all.

Of course with not a single proof jews thought that this prohet will be from among themselves, they dreamed always of being the best dominating nation in the world, not a normal nation among all nations of the world.

So jews were shocked when they found that the prophet who was clearly described in their books was from the arabs in Mecca, as if the arabs are not a nation from the nations of the world.

Of course some few jews including some of their best scholars believed in Islam at once they saw prophet Mohammed, but the majority was furious with rage and envy as if arabs are not humans like them.

when prohet Mohammed (pbuh) imigrated to Yathreb, the majority (of original arabs) were moslims, so of course prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen to be the leader of the city, cause the very majority of the city were moslims.

************************

And so Jews raged by their loss of power, envy that the described prophet with every detail in their book is from the arabs, they knew that he is from the arabian lands and so they first migrated there hoping that he will be from them, they were then raged wit envy and hatred that he was from the arabs, as if God should choose all prophets from them.

Again it's a matter of authenticity, and what the religion is offering in essence, and in proof of its authenticity, please read my quote in the last post for reference.
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Old 04-10-2008, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,662,407 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by IbeDavid View Post
REPLY: It might appear as such, but, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same almighty God . The God of Islam according to Muslim teaching is : Unknowable, non personal, distant, remote, believes you earn Gods favor by doing good works, the Koran is the word of God, and God is singular in essence. The God of Christianity according to the Bible is : Very knowable, very personal, entered time and history to atone for our sins in the person of Jesus Christ because no amount of meritorious good works can find favor with God, strongly desires a dynanic personal relationship with mankind, The BIble is the word of God, and God is triune in essence. Further... Islam denys Christ is God, denys God is 3 persons making up the Godhead, denys the ressurection of Christ, denys the Bible is the infallable word of God, denys the Christian belief in heaven and eternity...thereby implying Jesus Christ was a complete Liar and Fraud.

While it might seem plausible to assert ecumanism attempts between Islam and The Christian Faith, it is disengenuous to do so because they are vastly different and they cannot be both correct. Regards.
Still doesn't change that it is the same God, how man chooses to define, worship and ritualize is man's issues.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 04-10-2008, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,662,407 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
That's what people mean when they say the "Abrahamic God". They're referring to the one of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Well there you have it, there's even a name for it....


godspeed,

freedom
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Old 04-10-2008, 03:23 PM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,734,702 times
Reputation: 6163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
Any girl in Islam has the full right to accept or refuse the marriage, just to note it out.
Isn't it true that girls do not have the right to accept, refuse or choose husbands for themselves? As I understand it their male relatives choose for them.
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Old 04-10-2008, 03:57 PM
 
39 posts, read 93,982 times
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Before we get all ecumenical in relation to this Abrahamism, lets ask our Muslim friend to give an honest account of Islamic future prophecy. In particular, can you please highlight what is going to happen to Christians and Jews? Please don't hide anything.
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Old 04-11-2008, 07:50 AM
 
545 posts, read 1,799,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
God being almighty can be both personal and unpersonal

Lord Shiva is both personal and impersonal. In the personal aspect, Shiva creates, controls and pervades all that exists. In this aspect, Shiva is what other religions call God. Shaivism declares that there is nothing outside Shiva and, thus, recognizes the oneness of Pati-pau-pasa (God- Soul -World). In the impersonal aspect, Shiva transcends all existence and in the liberated state the Soul is one with Shiva.

imho the quran doesn't deny Christ, it just states that he is an apostle of God or Avatar.

[4:171] O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles

Avatar (also spelled as avatara) (Sanskrit: अवतार, avatāra), most commonly refers to the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of a divine being (deva), or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth. The Sanskrit word avatāra- literally means "descent" (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent into lower realms of existence for special purposes.

Also, God can be a single entity or a triple entity as the Father (Tat) the Son (Sat) and the Holy ghost (Om)

Avatars are human manifestations (incarnations) of the Sat or Christ consciousness.

Christ and Krishna are titles having the same spiritual connotation: Jesus the Christ and Yadava the Krishna (Yadava, a family name for Krishna, signifies his descent from Yadu, forerunner of the Vrishni dynasty). These titles identify the state of consciousness manifested by these two illumined beings, their incarnate oneness with the consciousness of God omnipresent in creation. The universal Christ consciousness or Kutashtha Chaitanya, Universal Krishna Consciousness is "the only begotten son" of the sole undistorted reflection of God permeating every atom and point of space in the manifested cosmos. The full measure of God's consciousness is manifested in those who have full realization of the Christ or Krishna Consciousness. As their consciousness is universal, their light is shed on all the world.
REPLY: All the New Age jargon used for Christ is not the same as Christ himself who claimed to be , and proved himself to be, the actual Creator of the Universe who came to earth in a body with flesh and blood to die for our many sins. Christ stands alone and you have to either accept who he said he was or call him a Fraud and Liar.
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Old 04-11-2008, 08:11 AM
 
545 posts, read 1,799,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Still doesn't change that it is the same God, how man chooses to define, worship and ritualize is man's issues.

godspeed,

freedom
REPLY: The difference between the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is immense . They are not the same . And the biggest difference is that the God of Christianity chose to become a Man in history and die on a cross to show his love for us and to reconcile us to himself if mankind is willing to recieve this free undeserved gift . Christ doing this is historical fact , and not based on 'a mans choice to define' anything . Because Christ can be historically proven to be who he said he was as proven by the historically verfifiable Ressurection from the dead after 3 days, he therefore nullifies ALL OTHER 'gods' that are and have been worshipped making ALL OTHER religions totally and utterly false.

If you ever want to have the historical evidence for Christ which proves him to be the only true God, go to www.impactapologetics.com for the large booklet called : The 12 Points that Prove Christianity. Or,i will send you a free copy if you are a sincere skeptic . PM me if you are. Regards.
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Old 04-11-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,662,407 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by IbeDavid View Post
REPLY: The difference between the God of Islam and the God of Christianity is immense . They are not the same . And the biggest difference is that the God of Christianity chose to become a Man in history and die on a cross to show his love for us and to reconcile us to himself if mankind is willing to recieve this free undeserved gift . Christ doing this is historical fact , and not based on 'a mans choice to define' anything . Because Christ can be historically proven to be who he said he was as proven by the historically verfifiable Ressurection from the dead after 3 days, he therefore nullifies ALL OTHER 'gods' that are and have been worshipped making ALL OTHER religions totally and utterly false.

If you ever want to have the historical evidence for Christ which proves him to be the only true God, go to www.impactapologetics.com for the large booklet called : The 12 Points that Prove Christianity. Or,i will send you a free copy if you are a sincere skeptic . PM me if you are. Regards.
Jesus is the Son of God, He became one with God as we can become one with God.
His Father is the Father of us all, Islam prays to the Father of Jesus.

They follow the Prophet Mohammed's interpretation of God the Father, which i don't reccommend, nonetheless, their God is our God.
Most of Islam does not recognize Jesus as God's Son, therefore i believe they have a handicap in their belief, but not another God. Christ laid His life down
for their sins as well. The light of Christ is available to all.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 04-11-2008, 12:47 PM
 
545 posts, read 1,799,772 times
Reputation: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Jesus is the Son of God, He became one with God as we can become one with God.
His Father is the Father of us all, Islam prays to the Father of Jesus.

They follow the Prophet Mohammed's interpretation of God the Father, which i don't reccommend, nonetheless, their God is our God.
Most of Islam does not recognize Jesus as God's Son, therefore i believe they have a handicap in their belief, but not another God. Christ laid His life down
for their sins as well. The light of Christ is available to all.

godspeed,

freedom
REPLY: No Sir...youve been misled by fine sounding arguments . The Father of Jesus is one of 3 distinct persons of the Triune Godhead ; Islam does not believe in the Trinity. , and it doesnt believe Jesus is the Son of God and in fact they get very irrate about this . Further, Jesus didnt 'become one with the Father' ... he IS the same essence AS the Father ,he came FROM the father, and as the Bible points out many times : Jesus created all things, holds all things in his sustaining power, will be mankinds final judge , is the only Saviour of Mankind , and no one will ever get to the Father/heaven except thru HIM alone (exclusive) . Islam does not believe in any of these . Further, they believe that personal good works is how one reaches heaven or paradise. Lastly, there is only one true God and that can be proven to be the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, so, all other 'gods' are non existant and Muslims are worshipping a Diety that doesnt even exist because they are not worshipping the Christian Triune God (God in 3 persons...blessed Trinity).
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